Ballroom Dance > Anyone know status of B'room dancing as an Olympic sport?

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by jxntwinkletoes, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. MacMoto

    MacMoto Active Member

    Hey, curling is a gripping viewing! :lol:
    At least it was when Scotland won the gold in the last Winter Olympics! 8) The match went to the wire, and we all cheered the girls on (in the comfort of our warm living rooms, watching the live broadcast) as they frantically swept the ice with their brushes! :lol: :lol: :lol:
  2. DanceAm

    DanceAm New Member

    There is already criteria for adding events into the Olympics. One is that there will not be a need to provide a separate venue.

    But I am sure everyone has their favorites. Track and field seems to be the most traditional and I know many people that like to watch Olympic Track and field events, but don't watch it any other time.

    I used to wrestle in high school and play golf. I would never wrestle again and I really don't enjoy watching golf. But when I was more involved, I use to watch them both.

    To each his own.
  3. robin

    robin New Member

    I don't think tradition is a particularly good guide as to what should be in the olympics. One of the first modern olympics had events like game-shooting and life-pigeon shooting in it. Also Polo and tug-of-war were traditional olympic sports.

    I think the problem with the judged sports is that they want to appear to be marking according to objective criteria. Rather than letting the judges compare competitors the way they do in dancing, they are given set guidelines as to what elements constitute what scores and how much to deduct for imperfections.

    Particularly in the gymnastic the result is that innovation and daring isn't rewarded anymore. In the high-bar for example, the result that the audience protested was completely correct according to the rules. Despite Nemov's routine being fantastically impressive, the "start value" is capped at 10.0, so however great the routine, it won't score more than any other that satisfies the criteria for 10.0. After that, it's only deductions due to errors.

    As a result the winner is the one who picks the most conservative routine that just qualifies as 10.0, and then doesn't make any mistakes.

    Much as people malign the judging system in dancing, it is the only system that allows the sport to progress, and that doesn't reduce it to being simply an exercise in perfecting predetermined exercises.
  4. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Hmm, I think most people's competition dancing could stand to move a lot closer to perfecting a conservative set of traditional exercises. Though I'd prefer not to have the combinations pre-determined. There's a tremendous amount of artistic variety available within the constrainst of classicaly performed traditional material - especially if you add the dynamic upredictability of sharing the floor.
  5. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    The mens gymnastic events last night were hugely disappointing. The fact that the judges were told to change their scores based on the audience reaction is outlandish and disrespectful to the judges. They were hired to give their opinion, and their opinions were discounted and changed because the chairman was afraid of an audience riot??!! How were the new scores anymore honest than the previous ones?

    The Russian gymnast, Nemov , was a complete gentleman and I applaud the way he held his composure and even asked the audience to quiet down so the American that was next up, Paul Hamm, could proceed. It was fascinating to watch! Some of our ballroom competitors could take a lesson in this kind of classiness.

    Whether or not we agree or not should play no part in the outcome. This is the problem we are facing daily with ballroom, because the basis of who wins and who gets second... opinions... can be dishonest, delusional, swayed, or even outright changed by someone else.

    As long as this is the case with us, or gymnastics, skating, diving etc... from an idealistic point of view we do not belong. From a realistic point of view I understand that skating and the other sports do bring in huge revenues. We have to accept that the world is run on money and the sports that can bring on the bucks are way ahead of us.

    Not to mention, do you really want to be the butt of all the jokes that would surface, if we were to be accepted. The very way Bob Costas commented in Sydney, regarding the possile inclusion of Dancsport, is only the tip of the iceberg. I for one, do not care to see the rest of the iceberg.
  6. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    This whole system to me seems incredibly unfair. Lets say that gymnast A's start value is 9.3, B's is 9.6, and C's is 10.
    A performs FLAWLESSLY and recieves 9.3
    B has a minor flaw and recieves 9.5
    C has several flaws and even falls but still recieves 9.6.

    C who had the worst routine still gets the gold. Gymnast A is set up from the beginning to practically never get the gold no matter how perfect they are.

    Imagine going in to a competition and knowing that the judges are not even going to consider you for anything more than the last, even if you pull off the performance of a lifetime...This system stinks to me, and hardly allows us to reward the true champions. It is like handicapping in golf, but backwards... :roll:
  7. DancePoet

    DancePoet Well-Known Member

    DancePoet wrote:


    What would you say would be a good idea to use as criteria for anything being included in the Olympics?"

    DanceAm wrote: "There is already criteria for adding events into the Olympics. One is that there will not be a need to provide a separate venue."

    To DanceAm: Do you agree with the current criteria, and if not how would you change it?
  8. tasche

    tasche New Member

    I think this was the case last night in the floor with Mohni Bardwaj. Her routine was only a start value of 9.7 but she perfromed near flawlessly and with vigor but was scored an 9.312 . Gymnasts dont seem to stick their landings anymore. I remember watching gymnasts a couple of years ago and commenting how boring it was bc no-body fell off or made mistakes
  9. DanceAm

    DanceAm New Member

    First off, I think tradition has a place in the Olympics but we should always be ready to eliminate some events. They got rid of Tug o war, and standing high jump. But there is a vote on some web site that showed Tug o war was leading Dancesport for new events to be added.

    As for tradition, the whole Winter Olympics is totally non-traditional, they didn't have any of those events in Ancient Greece. But I enjoy watching more events in the Winter Olympics than I do the summer Olympics. I don't even know why, maybe because of the slick snow and ice, the events seem more exciting and faster paced. I like watching hockey more than soccer or team handball, and it is a similar game. I watch the skating because my wife was a figure skater for many years and I know more about that than I thought I ever would.

    But I think athleticism and competitivness are the main criteria for a new sport. Even though I don't see athleticism in air rifle, I do see competitivness. I also think it should be a sport or activity that is found on both the eastern and western hemisphere. Baseball would not have been so big in the East until Japan fell in love with it. I am actually amazed that so many U.S. sports became so popular around the world, and if it wasn't for our women's teams, we would be looking pretty bad. My hats are off to the woman's softball and basketball teams for doing so well.
  10. robin

    robin New Member

    I don't really understand this criticism.

    If you have a very simple routine, you can't expect to win against someone who does something really difficult, unless they really mess up!

    A routine with a start value of 9.30 in the high bar for example would probably have none or only very simple releases, a simple exit, and generally no opportunity to mess up. Surely a "true champion" in artistic gymnastics would be a pioneer who would do more difficult and exciting things than anybody else, rather than someone who played it safe by doing things that have been around for decades...

    I think that the difficulty of the routine is not rewarded *enough*. In my view at least in the high bar and parallel bars final, the winner was not the one with the best performance, but the one with the safest performance that was just good enough for a 10.0 start value.

    Anyway, my view is that any artistic sport that merely aims to recreate the past is dead and will fade away. While I enjoy seeing competitors perform classical and beautiful routines (gymnastics, dancing or elsewhere), these steps we now see as classic were once considered novel and made their creators the foremost competitors of their day. A lot of gymnastics figures are named after the athletes who first performed them and in my view it is the mark of a true champion to create something new!

    A judging system should encourage the top competitors to innovate rather than just copy the last generation. I think that in contrast to the detailed prescriptions of the gymnastics judging system, the system employed in dancesport does exactly that.
  11. tasche

    tasche New Member

    I just wante dto add the one snippet that kind of reinforces the point I was trying to make about that yang wouldn't have automatically won the gold if his start value was 10.0
    "There are several important reasons for not going back and changing results the way the South Korean delegation thinks the international gymnastics federation should. Yes, there was an error on Yang's start value, but there are two sets of judges. One set comes up with the starting score; they add up the entire bonus. Then there is another set of judges, six of them that come up with the deductions in the exercise. (For more on judging, see: Inside The Sport: Gymnastics).

    As far as the deductions go, you can see they missed a deduction in Yang's routine. They did not take a mandatory two-tenths deduction for doing four holds. There is no way that they took it. If they did, he would not have medaled. Everybody focused on this one small issue of the start value. But if you're going to hold up an issue to that level of scrutiny, then you need to do it with everything. And if you do it for everything, you don't even have to look at another event, you can find a flaw right there."

    The full article is here
  12. kwa445

    kwa445 New Member

    tasche thanks for the link to that article! That's very interesting...I wonder why no one has brought this up before? Then again, maybe someone has brought it up and I (being uniformed) haven't heard about it. :)
  13. tasche

    tasche New Member

    Also the one factor nobody seems to mention is how pressure to bump your placements affects how you perform. Lets assume Yang's parallel bar routine score was .1 higher and he was leading he might not have gotten as higher score in the subsequent rounds bc he was feeling comfortable as opposed to striving to get the bronze. Hamm knew he had to be near perfect to bump himself up from 12th place and he did theres no shame in that

    The media didn't really cover that bc its more exciting news to state that the judging is crooked. The media would love dancesports drama which is why it SHOULD be included. Theres nothing the public loves more than a scandal. Thow in a few underdogs and surprise breakthrough performances and you've got a prime time winner

    Tasche who knows what she likes to watch

    Oh yeah maybe put a smidge of dancing somewhere in there
  14. Laura

    Laura New Member

    They were talking about it on the NBC Olympics broadcast the other day. I can't tell you for sure when, because I've been TiVo-ing everything and watching when I have time, but it might have been the same night that they did the "gymnastics gala." They even showed the tape of the South Korean guy's routine, and pointed out where all the 'holds' are.

    If we're not hearing more about it, I think it's because everyone is wisely letting it die a quiet death now.
  15. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    Minor tangent, but does anyone remember the specifics of (or even better, have text of) the comments made by Bob Costas regarding DanceSport in Sydney? Thanks!
  16. DancePoet

    DancePoet Well-Known Member

    Had two questions, but looks like SD already asked my first. :)

    Second question: Does anyone know where one would find a list of the criteria for including something with the Olympics?
  17. Laura

    Laura New Member

    I'd bet that if you dug around on the International Olympic Committee's web site at you'd find something. I just tried it, though, and got a "509/Bandwidth Limit Exceeded" error. This basically means that too many people are trying to look at the web site right now :)
  18. Adwiz

    Adwiz New Member

    I haven't seen a transcript or anything, but one remark was him asking "What would happen if Rita Moreno pulled a hamstring?" He also said that DanceSport was not a valid Olympic sport and the whole tone of his coverage dripped with negativity.
  19. tasche

    tasche New Member

  20. tasche

    tasche New Member

    In this situation what do you think the fair and reasonable thing to do is?

    IMHO I think they should run the all around again with a different set of judges or just let the results stand ( note I'm not a US citizen so feel no sense of patriotic pride when a US gymnast wins gold so I 'm not exactly biased in this)

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