Argentine Tango competitions

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by tangobro, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    Well, I disagree here Zoops. And I dont see anything 'disparaging' about calling the social dance, social dance and the performance style, performance dance. What the heck? Anyway we are all headed towards not even having a line-of-dance in the near future as I observe some festival dance floor videos (Beerlin)...and what am I supposed to do...pretend that there's no elephant in the room? If social dancers keep dancing steps taken from performance demos/classes, unforseen 'problems' will arise....I'd rather not keep my head buried in the sand.:artsy: Crikey!
  2. Ampster

    Ampster Active Member

    Mario, I have to disagree from your generalization that the line-of-dance is disappearing. This maybe true from your perspective. But, it is just that YOUR perspective. Your observations appear to be based on very limited demographics.

    Most of the places I go to do have a line of dance, maintain their traditions. Because, there are large enough groups of people who dance that way. It's what we do, and it will endure.

    Then, there are large groups who dance nuevo on the floor, but they have their own venues. Guess what... They also have a line of dance, except they dance large, and loud. The navigation is different. That's their world and they're happy doing it. So be it.

    Don't skew your assumptions on viewing festival videos. It is common knowledge that festivals are very chaotic because everyone representing every style of tango converge. Not good examples of general trends. The tango scene is not as dire as you think.
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    You really don't see how that's disparaging? Really?

    Not to mention blatantly false?

    Salon IS social dancing! That's my point. Even by the North American (and possibly European?) distinction between "Salon" and "Milonguero", Salon is still social dancing. And based on the videos you post, it's also the CE embrace style you LIKE.

    So why are you putting it down with statements like the one above?
    Which IS disparaging.
  4. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    None of which is relevant to the thread topic, which is about Tango competitions, not what happens at dance festivals.

    If anything, the posted competition videos disprove your assertion that LOD is disappearing. The dancers in the videos clearly moved CCW around the room, so this was obviously a criterion in judging the salon category..
  5. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    I can post videos showing that the line of dance is disappearing from Mexico to Germany.... competitions have as a judging criteria the line of dance...this is good and I hope that it continues. Well, I didnt think that I was putting anything down in my post above.. but I do think that it is imperative that we make the distinction between the performance dance and the social dance. Now, John Em posted praising the Salon dance for it's famed embrace and connection. I simply dont think that that attribute is accurate. Im surer about that each day..Salon is performance Arg. Tango.....and it's embrace and connection is not that of the social dance which I see as more of both. capiche? I dont want to fight or put anything down...I just want every spade called a spade and not a heart.
  6. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Then you are not understanding what salon tango is and are misusing the term to mean some other form.

    Ricardo Vidort is dancing Salon Tango in the video you posted on the "What are you working on" thread.

    Would you start a thread and post what you believe to be Salon Tango? Because I assure you that you are incorrect in these statements, so clearly you are thinking of something else that you are referring to as Salon Tango.
  7. mkjohnson

    mkjohnson Member

    Mario - As a follower, it's my job to adapt to the style of the leader I'm dancing with. Embracing that idea has given me the opportunity to study many styles of embrace, posture and musicality within AT. My favorite will probably always be on the shared weight/shared axis/apilado (however folks would like define it) end of the spectrum. But after taking privates with Salon teachers to broaden my experience and adaptability, I have to say Salon (which I understand is based on independent axis and somewhat fluid embrace - let me know if this is not so) is every bit as connected. I don't need to give a man my weight, or control of my balance, to feel his connection, or have him feel mine.

    And those same teachers I study with strongly emphasize floor craft and respect for the line of dance and other dancers on the floor. Their social dancing in no way resembles nuevo or open-embraces styles.

    I'm not sure, as Zoopsia mentioned, that we're meaning the same thing by Salon dancing maybe?
  8. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Salon is very much a social style of dance. The fact that someone wants to have a competition in salon style - and I have to admit that is an oxymoron, to some extent - doesn't change the fact that salon implies a social dance. Can it be put on stage? Sure, but that doesn't mean that salon is suddenly a stage tango.
  9. JohnEm

    JohnEm Member

    I certainly agree with all of this including the apilado preference although
    that only really is a question of degree or strength of connection and that
    connecting force dynamically changes.

    Different teachers, different ideas it seems. I too was taught salon style
    and what my teachers called the dynamic embrace which meant separating
    somewhat (not as far as open though) to independent axes to execute giros,
    ochos, blocks, sandwiches, boleos, ganchos and the like. The return
    from the loosely cradled forward ocho to the embrace could be truly lovely
    for the woman, as if each time she's having a renewed gentle hug.

    But in the embrace it was apilado, not the exaggerated apilado of show dancers
    or posed pictures but an individually self-controlled lean. This is always
    difficult to describe in words without getting into semantics. But I understand
    that argentinians may recognise it as a style found in the Villa Urquiza clubs
    such as Sunderland. Otherwise it would undoubtedly just be salon.

    Mario's videos are of performance/demonstration and they are inevitably larger
    as it's a purely visual entertainment. Even the famed Ricardo Vidort's
    own demonstrations were larger and freely used the whole floor ignoring
    the line of dance for the purpose. They are not useful for drawing conclusions
    about respect or otherwise of line of dance.
    And so did mine emphasise the same thing.
    What bothers me much more is seeing videoed end of class summaries
    of moves by people like Homer Ladas who has clearly taught turns and
    pivots which if used as demonstrated would result in the students facing
    back down the line of dance. Not good milonga preparation.
  10. JohnEm

    JohnEm Member

    We're threatening to go round in circles here.

    Yes salon implies a social dance - no question.
    Salon on the stage and in competition is a distortion by its nature.
    As it is being visually judged, the competitors will compete to make it
    visually appealing, even eye catching, within whatever rules are in force.

    It may not be show tango but nevertheless it is tango on the stage.
    And for me, it doesn't belong there.
  11. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Yes. When I called the Vidort video (on the "what are you working on" thread) 'salon', I was referring quite specifically to the embrace he was using and the choice of steps he includes. The embrace and connection was what Mario was saying does not exist in "salon". My point is that that IS a salon embrace, and it's a dancer he wants to emulate.

    I was not considering Vidort's use of the floor in that label because when giving a demo, almost no one ever bothers to follow line of dance rigidly. There's no one else out there, so it doesn't matter.

    It would be very frustrating for observers of a demo to be waiting as long as it typically takes for a BA couple to make it around the floor just to be able to see the couple close up. In fact, at one milonga I attended (I think it was Nino Bien) it took an entire tanda to get 3/4's of the way around the room! We were inching along steadily but really, it was inching, for sure. Imagine watching that as a demo and spending the entire demo seeing dancers as far away from you as they can be, and trying to appreciate (or learn from) their dancing that way just because they are dancing as though they are in a barely moving crowd.

    Nobody wants to need binoculars to watch a demo.
  12. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member


    Well, why should this thread be different from any other? ;)
  13. JohnEm

    JohnEm Member

    As long as it's an anticlockwise circle as LOD then. :p
  14. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    I'm only saying one simple thing. I've seen videos of great dancers like Eduardo Masci and Javier Rodriguez dancing in Milongas in BsAs. I've seen videos of them dancing in performances. The dances are NOT the same. Not by a long shot. So, I'd like to distinguish them as different dances. If you are saying that both are Salon...then 'Salon' as a word is useless here to me. Hence, I'm going to 'Social dance' and 'Performance dance'. Simple
  15. JohnEm

    JohnEm Member

    Entirely agree. The most outrageous use of the floor in videoed demos
    I've seen was Tete. He must have been something to see.

    Yes and there's little point in emulating a situation the very opposite of
    what obviously exists in a solo couple demonstration.

    However there is something rather charming in seeing a demonstration
    which travels around the floor broadly observing the line of dance.
    And it's a good reminder to newcomers that there is a LOD to be observed.


    True, but I need my glasses to watch whilst I don't need them to dance. :roll:
  16. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I don't find any contradiction. Salon is, IMO, for the benefit of oneself and ones partner. The minute you include an outside influence (judges) you change the nature of the dance.

    It only belongs on stage when someone decides to declare a category for it, but that doesn't change the meaning of the category in the larger dance world.
  17. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

  18. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs&feature=related
    one for the binoculars....is this Salon Tango? Then we need a new word
    because there are couples using that tag who are dancing a very different dance ...very little to do with the simplicity of this dance.
  19. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

  20. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Could you post an example of one of those?

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