Ballroom WCS versus non-Ballroom

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by toothlesstiger, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    ill dance WCS with you anytime!!! oh and while your hanging out .. stylize yo bad self!!!;)
     
  2. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    as the leader one should always be taking this into consideration.. its where preleads come from in a sense
     
  3. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    Body roll, hip wiggle, sassy footwork...take your pick. :) Let me know if you're ever in tow and I'll show you a good time! ;)
     
  4. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Briefly, what I found was an average reaction time is around 200 milliseconds, or 0.2 second. A song with a tempo of 120 beats per minutes has a "beat" that comes once every of 0.5 second.

    So, if you are "waiting for a lead" after your anchor step, and it takes 0.2 seconds to react to it, 40% of the time until the next beat occurs is gone before you can even start to move.
     
  5. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    Body roll, hip wiggle, sassy footwork...take your pick. :) Let me know if you're ever in tow and I'll show you a good time! ;)

    backatchya!!!:)
     
  6. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    hence the need to pre lead 0.2 seconds early to reduce options and focus ladies intent to move as you want it
     
  7. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    watch the top wcs leaders they switch their grip or position their bodies or look in a certian direction all to set up the next lead this is all goin on on the "beat and" before the anchor completes all while not busting the ladies groove!!
     
    Larinda McRaven likes this.
  8. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    Yep, what Mr 4 styles said. A proper connection and well-timed lead trumps math. :)

    And, really...I'm not making this up. Any WCS teacher worth their salt will tell you the same thing. That is one of the tenets of the dance...the lady waits to be led.
     
  9. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    LOL thanks but sometimes the math goes on in my head .. especially with the quick explosive follows like tatiana mollman damnnnn she can move!!
     
  10. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    So, does this mean that you don't lead a simple step forward out of an anchor by moving your "center," but from a pre-lead change in grip, or position of the body, or "look?"

    What pre-leads do you teach your students to use or be prepared for?
     
  11. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    moving my center is the beginning of the lead once i do that ive commited the ladies direction and to some extent speed of movement like in a syncopated walk out

    i dont teach but i do ALLOOTTTT of west coast with a lot of great WCS pros as opposed to ballroom pros and ive been doing it a while the best follows are taught to.......................wait

    this is why the MRS hates jack and jill so many leaders lead themselves and not the follower and she will bless her heart just wait

    WCS like salsa and hustle take quite a while to master the naunces of leading unique to each dance IMO
     
  12. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    Steve,, you seem super knowledgeable... have you done any WCS conventions or comps

    nothing beats the immersion method in this dance.. if you arent great at it now you will be quickly i bet:cool:


    oh and ask the BEST girls to dance not just the hot ones LOL

    i wont go to bed until i dance with tat and tessa cunningham
     
  13. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Well, I know a bit. I'll say that two small group "West Coast Swing 101" intensives with Skippy Blair, and an awful lot of reading and dancing, and watching helped me understand some things that I could feel, but no one had really explained to me, and correct some things about my own dancing, too.

    I don't do "conventions" and I'm not interested in competition. I went to a few Argentine Tango "festivals" here in Portland a few years back when I first started that dance, and..uh, just didn't find them very rewarding. I think I'm really lucky to be somewhere that WCS and Argentine Tango is pretty readily available.

    I took my first lesson from Skippy Blair here in Portland at a "festival," and what she said made a whole lot of sense, (especially the part about the "&a" before the "beat"), so that led to the intensives. I've dropped in on a few "Swing" "festivals" here, and, again, it's not for me. (I took a "swango" lesson once at one of those events, and, after having studied AT for 2 1/2 years...I have to say, that lesson didn't work for me.)

    I DO however want to be the best I can as a "social dancer," and I seem to have (usually - not always!) satisfied partners in the venue where I dance here in Portland and down in Long Beach, and in Vegas, so I continue to... let's call it read, practice, listen, and dance when someone will have me.
     
  14. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    You might not have noticed if Skippy discussed it with the women.
     
  15. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    before we started competitive ballroom we did alot of wcs hustle and salsa the conventions i went to, group classes and privates it took in one week were worth a year of knowledge easy you would be surprised how much you can learn from a top WCS dancer if you buy them a beer or in the ladies cases a glass of wine lOL
     
  16. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Perhaps you haven't been to one of Skippy's intensives at her studio in Downey. There were 11 people in the 2nd one I attended, and there were just 3 guys. There is nowhere to hide and there was no "Followers over here. Leaders over there" sort of thing. The first intensive was about the same size, and it, too was mostly women. The classes ran over 3 days. She quite literally calls you out and makes you do things very frequently.

    When I asked (in 2007) if I should go to one of Skippy's intensives, Dancelf wrote, "Executive Summary: do it. I attended her intensive in Atlanta, 2003. Most in attendance were teachers, or those with interest in teaching."

    So it was when I was in Downey, mostly teachers.
    Perhaps you recognize the names Sharlott Bott, Mary Ann Nunez, Mark Scheuffle, all of whom were there for a day or two during the first time I went. I didn't even have to buy them a drink! And Sharlott, Mary Ann, and Mark! were in the rotation when we were working on things.

    Sounds like you guys know what you know.
     
  17. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    No one's disputing that Skippy knows what she's talking about. I simply pointed out that maybe you didn't pick up on that particular aspect of swing, or maybe it wasn't mentioned because the girls were already doing it. I don't know. Feel free to go ask her or any of the other people you mentioned whether the follower is supposed to wait for a lead or step out on 1 automatically.
     
  18. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    By the way, I went to workshops with Mark and Sharlott about two months ago.
     
  19. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    I'm looking for a video where it is discussed, but meanwhile, take a look at this video from Skippy where she talks about a few things. She doesn't discuss this specifically, but watch her dance with Gary when he comes out around 2:15 or so. Watch her right arm. It always moves before her foot does--because she is waiting for him to lead her before she takes a step on 1...even when she tells him what pattern to do. If she were stepping on her own, her foot and arm would move together. Watch jack and jill videos and you'll see it. When you know what to look for, you can really see when a girl is waiting for the lead and when she's stepping out on her own.

     
  20. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    I don't know all these people, but here are some specific references on the subject. Why would so many people say it if it weren't true? You'll find a bunch more if you google +"west coast swing" +"wait for the lead"

    http://westcoastswingamerica.com/mvsstinkers.htm
    "The Greyhound
    This is the follower who coaster steps rather than anchor at the end of patterns. This is the follower who steps forward on count six or count eight. She does not anchor and she does not wait for the lead. She forfeits connection and rushes the lead at the end of every pattern."

    http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/wcs_specific.html
    "Yes I do teach to extend 6 count patterns to 8 counts in SOME classes. In my "LEARN ABOUT PHRASING" class I use this method to help new dancers learn to hear the phrasing in the music by dancing every pattern 8 counts. I teach them 4 different extended basic patterns and then count them in to start at the top of the phrase. I like to do this class using basic patterns because it then opens the class up to lower level dancers. I also use this method to teach new dancers about leading and following. Even if the dancer only knows one step, lets say a push break, and the leader indiscriminately adds those two extra beats then the follower learns to wait to be led in rather the assuming that after each time she does a triple step or a 5&6 she is going to walk forward. It also stresses to the leader how important and clear his lead must be... in other words if he doesn't clearly lead back and away she will not come in."

    http://www.centralhome.com/ballroomcountry/dance_tips.htm
    Ladies


    While dancing West Coast Swing be careful not to coaster on your anchors, anchor in place and wait for the forward lead on the next pattern.
    10. Don’t back lead. Followers, focus on learning to follow so leaders can learn to​
    lead. Wait for the leader to lead you forward/move you backward.​
    Pat says that Women have two duties:​
    1) Wait for the Lead (the walk, walk lead)​
    2) Dance to the end of the Slot​
    From Dwise: One thing that our intermediate WCS teacher had to constantly correct our follows on is to wait for the lead on 1. Beginning and early intermediate follows can get into the habit of anticipating the lead and end up "rushing" in, often by making the last step, 8, a step forward. One way to protect against this is to make sure to do a good solid anchor that leans back (about 3 to 5 lb).​
     

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