close or open embrace

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aqua, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. spectator

    spectator Member

    nearly pissed myself laughing
  2. spectator

    spectator Member

    oh yeah, and last time someone offered me a private lesson, it was pretty obvious that it was intended to be a 1-1 lesson. what was less clear was what he expected to teach me.

    Don't get into the argument there is no point!

    on to the topic, close embrace is a strange experience going from partner to prtner as things can be so utterly different. i have noticed as a leader that there are a whole load of people who don't just match your energy but go a little too far so that they are hanging off you. dare i suggest that sometimes the confusion here derives from a teacher picking up on this tendency and the suggestion to stay upright leads to over correction (I have asked people to "over correct" in sports coaching because often at first the change is too timid and to ask to exaggerate gets the result you want); this in turn leads to people dancing in "close embrace" such that their torsos are touching, but there is not matching of energy therefore very little "connection"?
  3. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    To anyone who feels that mentioning a gay tango instructor is engaging in a stereotype of gays, tango instructors or any other group, I apologise for any offence caused.

    Have a nice day!
  4. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    It's a tricky one, isn't it.

    I think we're also hampered by terminology. Words like "energy" don't mean that much to beginners, for example, but "push" and "lean" give the wrong impression.
  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Not quite long ago I wrote, that from a certain moment on, followers frequently asked me, to change from closed to open hold. The explanation: I was hanging over. But, when I posted it here that CE is danced on an own axis, too, known apilado disciples could not understand the world no longer.
    :p
  6. Mladenac

    Mladenac Active Member

    Does not need to be.

    Energy is intensity of pushing according the music.
    To first use the to push, then to vary those pushing.
  7. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    I think I would understand the request if you were actually bent forward at the waist, thereby towering over them with your upper body, rather than connecting at the core area. By "leaning" over someone with your upper body in CE, you are actually taking away the part of you that needs to connect to them, the sternum area. This seems to mostly be a problem with taller leads.

    My other half and I had this problem when we first tried to learn CE, and we ended up having to find a tall teacher help us understand it. Most Argentine teachers we had couldn't understand our questions about it. (Not really trying to stereotype, but let's face it, Argentines don't tend to be 6' tall or taller in most cases. I current know one, out of almost 5 years of lessons.)
  8. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Uh...just want to point out that even with...4?...years of experience behind me that that explanation doesn't make a hill'o'beans worth of sense to me. It wouldn't have helped me as a beginner.

    I know, I know. The singular of data is not anecdote. But I'm just saying, that explanation doesn't necessarily clarify the concept for some people. I think the idea of "energy" to a beginner is exceptionally confusing.
  9. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Exactly Bastet. I had this problem, but it actually got corrected pretty early for me, because my teacher is short and I'm tallish. :) She pointed out to me that whenever I didn't bring my center to her, it caused her to collapse into the space I was leaving. I wasn't exactly bending at the waist, I just wasn't forward enough with my whole torso.
  10. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Whilst I'm loathe to re-open a terminology debate, the word "energy" is ambiguous - people's interpretation of it, even within a dance environment, varies. For example, a dance performance can be classed as "high-energy" if it involves lots of jumping around.

    So talking about "energy" in a connection, especially to a beginner, can be confusing.

    Well, why not say "push" then?

    Everyone knows what "push" means, after all.
  11. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Yes - this happens a lot with tall leads. Fortunately I'm only a wee blert.

    I describe it as "caving your chest".
  12. spectator

    spectator Member

    school boy mechnicisings

    ok I think the way we are going to have to do this is
    F=ma^2

    E=mc^2 so E/c^2=M
    therefore
    F= a^2 (E/c^2)

    and totally school boy errorising use this to say Ff=Fl otherwise they will fall over
    so getting the Ff=Fl right in terms of the directional vector of each F is the important thing, or finding the the perfect "F" that gives the best connection.

    therefore I show how to explain in terms of energy and force without people thinking they are supposed to be jumping up and down like jelly bean or using brute strength to crush each other.

    :cool:
  13. Mario7

    Mario7 Member

    The above sounds correct to me. The lead in CE has got to tilt forward like the leaning tower of Pisa.. The axis becomes shared but if one dancer pulled away, the other could quickly recover their own axis.
    Any comments on this understanding are welcome.
  14. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    > the word "energy" is ambiguous

    "Energy" is one of many words the meaning of which changes the more one understands about the dance. Hence, the greater the separation of the dance experience of the two people conversing with it, the more misunderstanding it causes. You see this often in beginners' classes having otherwise good class teachers.

    One reason why an embrace is worth a thousand words.
  15. Ampster

    Ampster Active Member

    What are we talking about??!!
  16. Mladenac

    Mladenac Active Member

    About energy:
    Generally - Energy in tango would be applied dynamics of movements according to the music
    Beginners - Energy as a concept that you show your partner that you are there
    Some leader does not push on every step, and followers does not receive pushing from the leader the way leader intended.

    About CE with height difference:
    It is very simple.
    You must put your centers at the same level.
    If a guy is taller, he goes to more open embrace posture (lowering his center), while follower remains the same.
    If a lady is taller, she goes to more open embrace posture (lowering her center), while leader remains the.

    When adjusting centers step should be more appropriate to the shorter partner.
  17. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    yes- it can definitely have that feeling...and then the lady's head feels bent backwards!

    I tend to feel most comfortable dancing with "wee blerts" :p
  18. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    in US, when you say "i'm having a private", it means 1-on-1 with a teacher or a couple that teaches together. If you say "we're having a private", it means that a couple is.

    people will sometimes have "private classes", where it means that an arrangement outside normal classes has been made for a group to have classes. This is, however, a more rare usage of the word. The only reason I've seen it used is because people still want to feel they're having quality teaching as good as a real private class...

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