Tango Argentino > close or open embrace

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aqua, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    Micro blues- it's true- and they seem a lot more comfortable with the dual nature of blues as a concept - Micro versus macro (open)- and when each is appropriate to be danced, than a lot of tango dancer I've met. Though that's not to say they don't stil have the similar problems as tango does with large moves on a small floor (from what I've heard from friends who dance it).
  2. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    yes- several, some of them my own close embrace teachers.

    Or does almost 3 years of my close embrace training after learning open embrace translate as "few classes", I wonder?

    That was quite a sweeping generalization.
  3. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    totally agreed.
  4. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    :confused: Can you explain this?

    (Preferably not with "Well I've done a lot of dancing and therefore I'm right"?)
  5. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Obvious troll is obvious.
  6. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member


    I'd get used to feeling that feeling if I were you. ;)

    Blimey, you got that in only 10 months? It took me three years to reach that conclusion :(

    Well, when in Rome, you know?

    I'm not sure about that - they both require different skillsets.

    This was discussed recently in the "Motivations for studying Tango Nuevo " thread (for example, Peaches' post here)

    You Are Not Alone :)
  7. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Nicely put - and welcome chanchan too :)
  8. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    MJ Blues or Blues Blues?

    (Yes, they are different)
  9. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    yeah- should have noted that. :rolleyes:
  10. mkjohnson

    mkjohnson Member

    Subliminal: *snerk* well summarized.
  11. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    Ah, well no surprise they've taken classes if they claim to be teachers.

    But the vast majority of close-embrace dancers in BsAs have not.

    I've noticed that just about everyone saying they find learning to dance tango difficult are trying to learn in classes. It's like:

    1) I am trying to learn Spanish in classes and finding it difficult.
    2) Every Spanish speaker I know has had classes.

    See, 1 is largely caused by 2, and 1 soon reinforces 2 in a vicious circle.

    Millions have learned Spanish without difficulty, because they learned naturally from those that speak it without difficulty. Without classes.

    I suggest anyone having difficulty learning tango dancing by classes should try learning it by dancing. If that means paying someone for a private one-to-one session, fine. Your first pick might be your class teacher - if he can't teach you even direct through dance, then you certainly learned something worthwhile.
  12. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    This is usually a symptom of a follower who doesn't actually know how to dance CE using CE technique. I am slowly becoming convinced that OE->CE transitions and CE->OE transitions in a dance are fiendishly difficult and should never, ever be done. What happens in general is that these transitions lead to CE danced with OE technique (i.e. the close embrace with a partner that manages her own axis), which leads to a (imo) quite limited vocabulary. CE requires of the follower a different use of the dissociation, a different technique in the walk, a different use of the hip and spine, a shift from using the pivot, axis, and momentum as the base of the dance to using cross, alignment with the leader and the ground path as the basis of the dance. Its like the early days of the UCF - knowing about the long and middle range does not help if somebody closes in. And almost nobody does the close game and the open game equally well. If a follower and leader are both equally skilled at both ranges transitions are a great way to show this off, but in most cases i see these transitions and notice that there is now a mismatch between their technique and their chosen range.

    One of the nice things at the moment is that nuevo CE dancers like Jaimes Friedgen are becoming more visible - it has always been frustrating to me that so few people realized the dynamic and technical possibilities and range of the CE. I hope that nuevo CE does to milonguero the same as nuevo OE has done to salon :).

  13. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    Hmmm dodgy analogy. Most fluent speakers of a language

    a) are constantly immersed in the relevant environment
    b) have done lessons at school
    c) dont have an ultra competitive learning environment to deal with (cant dance - wont dance)

    And stumbling to fluency in Spanish doesnt require you to step constantly on your dance partner's toes :)
  14. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    > Most fluent speakers of a language
    > a) are constantly immersed in the relevant environment

    I didn't say fluent. I said "without difficulty" - that's a lot less demanding, and allows practice to lead to fluency.

    > b) have done lessons at school

    That school lessons teach children to speak is a myth.

    > c) dont have an ultra competitive learning environment to deal with (cant dance - wont dance)

    You've lost me there. One of the problems of the class method is that it removes the competitive motivation.

    > And stumbling to fluency in Spanish doesnt require you to step constantly on your dance partner's toes :)

    Nor does learning to dance tango. Stepping on toes comes from the class method that drills steps without imparting the embrace.
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

  16. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    Very interesting comment.

    All the girls I've danced with from one Dutch dance school have just what you've described. They dance physically close but mechanically distant (with various guys). I find this much harder to accomodate than either regular close or regular open. I've not found this effect in any of thousands of other girls from many countries, so I wonder what the cause is. Perhaps related to another unusual factor of their learning - the instructor is a gay guy.
  17. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Ah, I see... you are making a distinction between group classes and other ways of learning tango from skilled practitioners.

    But why an either/or?

    Of course, people have to get out in the milongas to polish their dance. And yes, private lessons can often be better than group classes for those that can afford them. That doesn't mean that group classes have NO value, especially for beginners, as long as they aren't so big that the teacher never gives them any personal attention.

    Do leaders in BA really get people to dance with them when they haven't had ANY instruction other than observing at a milonga? Some of the milongas are so packed you can't observe anything other than people's heads. Followers around here are leery of dancing with someone (ESPECIALLY in close embrace!) that has no idea what he's doing. That's a good way to get stepped on or otherwise hurt.

    But if you learn only by dancing at a social dance, at some point, you danced without knowing what you are doing. In many places, it is frowned upon to attempt to learn a move at a milonga. A milonga, with a partner, is where you lead what you know. Adding to what you know has to be done elsewhere.

    But then I'm here and you're there and rules are different everywhere
    (hey, I made a poem! GO me! :D)
  18. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    this is what I would call salon style AT.
    Transitions are like anything else; something you can learn; I will use a transition to open embrace to any follower who cant follow or control her own axis, but I rarely need to dance a transition since if we are dancing well why bother. I'm more likely to change through choice of music and/or partner.

    I do!

    I dont understand what you are saying here.

    is Jaimes Friedgen on youtube?
  19. bastet

    bastet Active Member

    yes- the techniques are different and difficult to combine, from what I have found.

    Also- a the reverse also applies- a follower trying to do close embrace (weight shared) with a leader who doesn't know how is very uncomfortable, because he feels backweighted- someone will have to adapt their embrace in these instances if either one knows how- if not- then the dance breaks down, inevitably.
  20. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member


    You're just trying to stir up trouble any way you can aren't you?

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