Tango Argentino > close or open embrace

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aqua, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    My Goodness, people!

    I ignore a thread for 24 hours... TWENTY FOUR little hours(!) and now I don't think I can possibly catch up! :(

    Nice to see some discussion of, you know, TANGO, on the board, but you guys are way too prolific for me!

  2. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Yeah. Seems like its either time to hijack it or turn it into a flame war.:rolleyes:
  3. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Perhaps it's a semantic argument, perhaps not. But I can say, with some certainty, that although I'm moving along with the leader I am moving myself. I am not just letting myself be pushed around the floor by my partner. (Of course, neither am I ignoring my partner and just going off on my own.) But my movements come from me; the my power comes from me. I take the lead and move myself. I would wager that other (at least reasonably) proficient followers would say the same. Perhaps this is what you consider being "propagated" by the follower. *shrug*

    Am I absolutely certain? No. But what I can say is that I would wager that leaders would know if I'm on a certain foot (or not), in that they can correct for my mistakes by altering what I lead. IME, when leaders do not know this, and merely assume, if I make a mistake it is not so easily covered by the lead. Nor are they apt to make allowances for me as a follower: if I hold a note/step, if timing is off somewhere, I can feel a difference in the lead. Some men, the ones I gather cannot tell where a woman's feet are or where her weight is, cannot adapt to their follower. Things are going to happen when they say they will happen, regardless of if their partner is with them in that movement or not. It is an incredibly difficult exercise in following, when the man is leading two steps ahead of where you actually are because, for whatever reason, he hasn't realized that you have to complete a step before going to the next one. Yes, I realize that there are exceptions to this. ;-)
  4. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    A one-to-one is a private class.

    That's what "private class" means.
  5. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Regarding "dancing without knowing how you dance":
    Some do. Some learn. In classes.

    What have you got against classes? :confused:
  6. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    this is true; my tango skills work when I dance with modern jive followers; the leading is totally different but i always know where my partner's weight is; without looking; in tango it is easy to feel where your partners weight is by connection through the arm/s and shoulder.
    I have done and taught exercises with eyes shut to feel where your partners weight is. Its not difficult. Like everything else it just takes practice.
  7. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    yes - tango 101, innit? :cool:
  8. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Leading and following is just an oversemplification of the real thing, in which actually both dancers "lead" and both "follow". Otherwise the follower would be just a puppet. Movements of the two bodies are linked by the "connection". While staying on your axis, the connection is something that you search and you mantain, with the embrace. You can also lose it for some moment, and there is nothing bad, if this is what you want.
    While leaning, the connection is something that is there. It is not a choice, it is physics: your movement is my movement, my movement is your movement, with or without the embrace: you could dance apilado without any embrace at all.
  9. Captain Jep

    Captain Jep New Member

    Dude, a "class" is obviously a heirarchical construct designed for no other purpose than to demonstrate the obvious superiority of the teacher to any of the other dancers in the room. Indeed the teachers may claim "droit de seigneur" and then waltz away with your life partner, only to cast her aside like a feeble pawn three minutes later. Leaving her with wobbly legs and you with a headache.

    Any "teaching" that takes place is purely incidental. As your body cannot tell you whether it has truly learnt the topic in question until many milongas later you are basically taking a complete gamble on whether you have learnt anything at all. Going to a class is really about meeting the opposite sex. You're just pretending that it isnt thats all.

    Does that help answer the question ? lol :cool:
  10. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Likewise you can dance open without any embrace or any sort of contact, and you can dance salon without any embrace. But what does that have to do with the price of eggs in Albquerque?

    All I'm saying is that the woman provides her own power for her movements; she's not just dragged along or pushed along like a grain of sand. Just a minor clarification is all. Yes, of course if the man moves she'll move along with her...but it's not like she's a complete dead weight.
  11. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    > But what I can say is that I would wager
    > that leaders would know if I'm on a certain foot (or not)

    Me too. Every good leader knows where the girls weight is relative to her feet, whether leaning or not. It comes from the kinaesthetic sense of the partner's body that reaches across the embrace, open or closed. It's essential to the girl's input to the dance, and hence the conversation - without it, there's only a monologue.

    > in that they can correct for my mistakes

    In that they can ensure there are no mistakes to correct for. An important milestone in the development of guys is the realisation that the "girl on wrong foot" problem encountered in classes does not exist in real dancing, where there's no instructor to define what is the "right" foot.
  12. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I don't think so: how can you lead and follow without any sort of contact for more than some seconds, or salon without any embrace?
    Yes, but sharing the axis, the weight, the movements, the power or anything else doesn't mean being dragged along or pushed like a grain of sand, but it means that there is no more "my own power" or "my one movements". I don't undestand why you consider them as the same.
    For example, you could insert some adorno: but it won't be "your" adorno,
    it will be "our" adorno, because your movement will inevitably affect me, my balance, my feelling of the music in the same way that my "leading" affects you. So you the power that you provide is not only for yourself, but for both of us.
  13. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    Yes! May I have the next dance please?
    I think chanchan is saying that it is not a matter of course that she moves along with the man. It is the expression "The lead proposes, the follow disposes." Just because I mark the next step doesn't mean you must do what I've indicated. If it is a navigational question, I'll lead heavily enough that, unless she wants to fight about it, the follow will come along. Otherwise, I mark the next step, but try not to lead it in such a manner that she can't reject the invitation and do something else, which I must follow.
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    With pleasure! :D

    Huh. Then I must not be getting something. I thought that's what I was trying to say, lol. (Albeit not effectively.) Er...sorr, chanchan, for the miscomunication!
  16. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Actually, yes. I have done it, multiple times, for ~20 minutes or so at a time, in lessons. I rely on visual leading/following. It's a great exercise for working on visual awareness and developing an independent sense of balance.

    The same way you dance apilado without any embrace: by following the leads and intentions and weight shifts of the leader as felt through his torso. IME, it's very rare that I notice leading through the embrace (arms, in this case) itself. Generally, if I feel the lead coming through the embrace I tend to think that the guy isn't skilled enough to lead through his body.
  17. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    OK, fair point.

    But I will definitely say that there have been times where I have (belatedly) realized that what I was doing was definitely not what the leader had wanted me to do. It's usually a case of my attention being diverted just long enough for me to go on autopilot for a step or two before realizing that I'm no longer following, but instead just doing my own thing. Or it's a case of trying to follow with my brain being involved, which NEVER goes well. LOL. I define those moments as times when I'm on the "wrong" foot...as in, I'm definitely not where my leader had intended for me to be. Heh. */cue sheepish grin and apology for making up my own dance/*

    In lessons...well, there it's a little more clear cut when there is a "wrong" versus "right" foot to be on. (Me: "That's not what you led, was it? Him: "No, honey, it wasn't." Me: "Er, sorry. Where am I supposed to be now?" Him: "Don't worry, I'll get back to it.") But in every case I can think of where this happened, my teacher was able to continue leading and going with things--like that's what he intended all along--which definitely leads me to believe that he knew what foot I was not...not just assumed.
  18. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    > I define those moments as times when I'm on the "wrong" foot...as in,
    > I'm definitely not where my leader had intended for me to be.

    It's worth the girl asking herself how she really knows she's not where the leader had intended her to be. With a poor leader, sometimes a big clue is the fact he's standing on her toes :) but more often her idea of where she was intended to be comes from her subconcious knowledge of his limited vocabulary e.g. gained from partnering him and/or his classmates in drilled sequences. With a really good leader, you won't know his intent that way because he has no limits of vocabulary, and often actually no such intent either - he's following you has much as you're following him.

    In my experience, for a girl to concern herself with where the leader intended her to be does no good and usually impedes development toward complete freedom in the dance. Better just to trust.
  19. Ampster

    Ampster Active Member

    Yup, just made some pop corn, pulled up a chair, and watching the brouhaha. :bouncy:
  20. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    They know to the best of their abilities. this sentence is pointless as it is and I'd advise you to avoid this line of debating...

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