Ballroom Dance > College Dance Comps (was NDCA vs USA Dance Point Rules)

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by Laura, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Since I just danced a sanctioned comp that had more than straight finals, I thought I'd look up the proficiency point rules for the NDCA and USA Dance to see if K. & I had earned any points. What I found was quite interesting.

    First, I'll summarize the rules:

    In USA Dance, you earn a point toward your current proficiency level at a sanctioned competition if:

    1) You WIN at your current level, and a semi-final was danced.


    2) You place in the top three of a higher level, and a semi-final was danced.


    3) You make the final of a higher level, and a quarter-final was danced.

    Dancers are allowed to earn up to 5 points before being forced to move up and out of their current level. Also, I have been told several times that points earned under USA Dance rules at NDCA comps still count toward your USA Dance proficiency levels.

    Now for the NDCA rules:

    You earn a point toward your proficiency level at a sanctioned competition if:

    1) You WIN your current level, and a semi-final was danced.


    2) You make the final of a higher level, and a semi-final was danced.

    Dancers are allowed to earn up to 3 points before being forced to move up and out of their current level.

    Please note that in both systems, placements in Pro/Am events have no bearing on one's Amateur proficiency points. Also, in both systems, points cascade downward. So, if you've never entered a Bronze competition but enter Gold and win, you in effect get one point for Gold, one for Silver, and one for Bronze.

    As you can see, there are definite differences. By the NDCA rules, K & I got a point against Pre-Novice (which doesn't even exist in USA Dance) by dancing a Novice event that started in a quarter-final and making the final. However, since in USA Dance Novice is alongside sylllabus, that point does not translate over to the USA Dance system.

    Isn't this confusing! Maye some people appear to sandbag because they just can't figure it all out....

    But wait, there's more...because of the 5 versus 3 point rule, it's now possible for a couple to place out of a level in NDCA comps but go back and dance it in USA Dance comps. In an area like where I live where there's no sense of separation between the two communities, this is rather weird.
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    The collegiate community has been dealing with seperate systems for years; it's not an overwhelming problem.

    One interesting thing though: for purposes of USABDA elgibility, will placing 4th in a higher level at an NDCA comp with no quarterfinal earn you a point?
    Ie, should points from NDCA comps be counted towards elgibility at USABDA comps under the NDCA granting formula, or the slightly stricter USABDA granting formula?

    There's a similar problem in the collegiate world. For inexplicable reasons, the USABDA suggested policy is that USABDA points import 1-for-1 for determining collegiate elbility - but collegiate points are far easier to earn. So for determining elgibility at some comps, like the MIT Open, placings at USABDA and NDCA comps earn collegiate points as if they had been collegiate competitions.

    Another occasional spot for differences is that some policies award points for being in the final, while others award points only up to 6th place.
  3. skwiggy

    skwiggy Well-Known Member

    Re: NDCA versus USA Dance Proficiency Point Rules

    Congrats, Laura! :)
  4. DanceAm

    DanceAm New Member

    I have yet to earn a point in the NDCA because we never had enough couples to make a semi-final. Worse than that, they minimize the age groups sometimes down to just 1 and put some older, and I mean older couple in our heat just to make it look there is competition.

    Heritage was the biggest with 5 couples that I competed in.
  5. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    At least in the northeast, it seems almost impossible for a comp to have a syllabus semifinal without substantial participation from the collegiate community. Only in open are there enough active adult couples to create a semi. That means there's little for syllabus dancers to do during the summer - hopefully moving into open there will be more contested competitions to choose from, but it still would be nice to see larger syllabus attendance somehow.
  6. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Come out here to San Francisco! The Novice event at the local NDCA events usually has quarter finals. For a while the Pre-Novice events would go three rounds also, but all those people have moved up and the new crop of adult syllabus dancers is kind of small.
  7. Laura

    Laura New Member

    The way I understand it, it's using the USA Dance forumla.
  8. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    It does generally seem most sensible to use the system of the comp for which elgibility is being calculated... it's just a bit more complicated since you have to go back to the actual results, including needing to know the number of rounds. Of course if we had all the results in one place, it would be easy to write a program that could tally them under any desired accounting scheme...
  9. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    I understand the whole "sandbagging" aspect, but what other significance is their to accumulating points? Pardon the ignorance here....
  10. DanceAm

    DanceAm New Member

    I wouldn't go to San Francisco if my plane was crashing into the GGate bridge.

    Just kidding.

    I am on the east coast, it would have to be a pretty important comp to justify that amount of flying to dance.

    As far as tallying up the points, there isn't even a central place to see results. If the Website posting the results is over a year old, they usually scrap the previous year and put the new results up.
  11. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    So then it's basically an honor system?
  12. Laura

    Laura New Member

    I keep a little file on my computer and when I get back from a comp I write down my results and if there was a semi-final or a quarter-final or not.

    Now that the NDCA and USA Dance rules have diverged, I actually keep two files -- one where I apply the USA Dance rules, and one where I apply the NDCA rules.

    According to my best interpretation of NDCA rules, I can't do any level lower than Gold and Pre-Novice (when it's Bronze-through-Gold combined). According to my best interpretation of USA Dance rules, I'm still eligible for Bronze! I've got three points in Bronze and three in Silver, and now that USA Dance allows you to get five points....

    As for why it's nice to accumulate points...well, I see it as a sort of milestone. If I've done well enough to point out of a level, I feel like I've really made some progress.
  13. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Did you earn your third USABDA point before or after the rule change? If before, then you placed out, if after you can get two more.
  14. Laura

    Laura New Member

    It's totally an honor system, and has always been one, which is why it doesn't always work. The people who are honorable and do their best to understand and follow the rules get jibed by the ones who don't bother and/or don't care. Basically, you are penalized by being honest because there is no central enforcement system. Sucks, doesn't it?
  15. skwiggy

    skwiggy Well-Known Member

    What is pre-novice? Is it a level that allows open choreography?
  16. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Actually, it's weirder than that. The way the NDCA rules go, I have three points in NDCA Bronze and Silver. The way USA Dance rules go, I still only have two points, unless there's some mapping of points from Novice to syllabus that no one has been able to explain to me. I was just simplifying the case for discussion here.

    Still, either way, I got the third point after the rules changed, so I'm allowed to get five. that I've thought about it...I don't know that I've taken college comps into account! You say that college points are supposed to translate one-for-one back to USA Dance points? I should go back and re-calculate. If so, then I am definitely out of Bronze and Silver in both organizations (which makes me feel good, actually).
  17. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Well, not always. There was a recent case where an odd online registration was noted, results researched and organziers notified (apparently by more than one party) and the person in question decided to drop their lower of two registered levels. And this happened well before the day of the competition, rather than at it or after the fact.
  18. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Pre-Novice is an NDCA creation, and it's restricted to syllabus only. You see it mainly on the West Coast. Rather than running separate Amateur Bronze, Silver, and Gold events, they lump them together into Pre-Novice. Unlike in USA Dance, Pre-Novice sits below Novice. In USA Dance, the syllabus levels sit alongside the Novice level. If you're confused, you're not alone.
  19. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    No, other direction. I was referring to the USABDA suggestion that USABDA points import 1-1 into the collegiate accounting system. This contrasts the more aggressive MIT practice of scoring the USABDA/NDCA comps as if they were collegiate comps. Or Harvard's new practice of scoring a list of collegiate comps plus anything with over x number of entries as if it had been a USABDA comp, but with the old limit of 3 points. Nothing like ingenuity, is there?
  20. skwiggy

    skwiggy Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the explanation. I'm more confused by the explanation of the different point systems than by the explanation of what pre-novice is. :) Maybe if they just called it "syllabus", that would help alleviate confusion.

    So does that mean that when Nationals are held on the west coast next year, there will be pre-novice instead of bronze/silver/gold? That would be interesting for those coming from the east coast.

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