Ballroom Dance > College Dance Comps (was NDCA vs USA Dance Point Rules)

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by Laura, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Oh, too bad. It's one thing to say you are a gold-level dancer, and another thing to say it and mean it because you are ineligible to do anything lower.

    Woah (looking at clock) to run pick up K. for practice and lesson! See you all later...
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Probably not - Novice itself was the west coast half of the grand compromise, the syllabus levels being the east coast half. And it's the mix of those that I think nationals would be required to offer?

    DANCEJAN New Member

    I also live on the East Coast and agree that there is not much competition at the NDCA events.

    It is an honor system and after many years of dancing, I have yet to see it abused. What really happens is that you reach a certain level of dance and know that you are ready to move to the next level for more challenging routines. Since most times you are competing against yourself, and trying to improve personally from the last comp, it works!!
  4. Laura

    Laura New Member

    No. Pre-Novice is an NDCA creation, it's not used in USA Dance events. When USA Dance Nationals are held in San Jose next year, they will follow the usual USA Dance levels, just like everyone is used to from previous years.
  5. Laura

    Laura New Member

    I'm telling you...San Francisco is an awesome fun place to visit and our two big NDCA comps have been known to go as far as having an "A" round (octofinal) in Championship Standard in the past. Before the big economic crash, we'd get quarter-finals in all the levels. The past couple of years have been slower -- semi-finals and even straight finals. In fact, last year was kind of pitiful. But things are looking up. If this week's City Lights Ball was any indication, the pendulum is swinging back in the other direction. All the top couples were at NDCA Nationals in Provo, but us lower-level dancers were busy. Novice Standard had 19 couples registered (18 showed up) and went three rounds. I know that Pre-Champ only had a semi, though.

    Supposedly entries for the upcoming San Francisco Open are way up. That will be the real bellweather: if entries are up in all levels there, then I'd say we've got a trend toward more amateur competitors shaping up again.
  6. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    While we're talking about Novice vs. Syllabus, I'm curious about something. Since the West Coast folks seem to view Novice as their entre into competitive levels, and the East Coast folks seem to view Sillybus as theirs, what happens at Nationals when the two groups go head-to-head?

    If the EC peeps view Novice as pre-Pre-Champ, do they gain an advantage over the WC peeps who presumably haven't taken longer and gone through the syllabus?
  7. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Why the East Coast versus West Coast difference? Different teaching philosophy of the big-name teachers? :?
  8. Egoist

    Egoist Member

    EC couples dancing in novice for the same amount of time as WC couples should have an advantage. However, the question is how long will a WC couple stay in Novice before jumping to Prechamp?
  9. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Nowadays Pre-Novice is considered to be the entry point for those doing NDCA-sanctioned competitions. It's usually a Bronze-through-Gold-lumped-together closed syllabus event.

    The USA Dance-sanctioned events out here have the usual syllabus events, separated by level.

    When the groups go head to head, the best dancers win :) A friend of mine from out here won Novice at Nationals a few years ago, and they were dancing syllabus Quickstep during it!
  10. Laura

    Laura New Member

    No, not at all. I think it's a difference due to how competitions were organized and run 15-20 years ago.
  11. Laura

    Laura New Member

    It really depends on the couple, for both points. Just because the NDCA comps out here don't run separate Bronze Syllabus, Silver Syllabus, and Gold Syllabus events for amateurs it doesn't mean that people aren't studying and competing in syllabus events. As I've mentioned before, we get a "Pre-Novice" event out here which is closed syllabus, and is a place where all those syllabus dancers can compete. Also, at the USA Dance Sanctioned events, we run the usual syllabus events. And then there are the college events, which also run the usual syllabus events. At the last big USA Dance event I worked at, we had octo-finals in Newcomer and in Bronze syllabus Standard and Latin, quarter-finals in Silver, and semi-finals in Gold. A lot of syllabus dancers also danced (their syllabus routines) in Novice, so we had a quarter-final in Novice. So, despite years of rumor to the contrary, it's not actually the case that no one dances syllabus out here.

    Some couple stay in Novice forever, others move up when they want more of a challenge. It really depends on each couple's results, future plans, and what their coaches recommend. Most people I know don't/won't move up until they're forced to by the proficiency point system, which is about to get very confusing because a couple will have to move out of Novice in an NDCA-sanctioned event after earning three points, but will be able to go to five points in USA Dance events. I'm sure that's going to cause frustration and accusations of sandbagging by people who don't realize that the rules for the two organizations are now different.
  12. NielsenE

    NielsenE Active Member


    What do you think about the recent change from 3 to 5 points in the USABDA system for placing out?

    I've always felt that the collegiate system moves people along too fast, while the old USABDA system was too slow. I was hoping that when USA Dance adjusted the rules they might tweak it slightly in the faster direction, not in the slower one...

    It seems like everyone always complains about not being able to find semi-finals in some events to earn points in the first place.
  13. standardgirl

    standardgirl New Member

    Ok, guess since I am more toward the EC, I am just not familiar with this PreNovice (mixed Bronze, Silver, Gold) idea.
    So, all couples, including from Bronze to Gold, dance and compete against each other in this one PreNovice event? but it's very unlikely that the bronze or perhaps silver couples will place better than a gold couple. How does this work? Do those events (prenovice) end up being majority of Gold couples, with perhaps, some Silver dancers in it?
    Or do people actually all participate from accross the different syllabus levels?
  14. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I could see pre-novice working tolerably though - sometimes the differences between the levels at east coast syllabus comps are fairly small - it's quite common to see people making finals at both their legal level and the next level up. Couples who really latch on to a workable mix of skills, partnership, and coaching tend to charge through the levels pretty fast, meaning a "bronze" couple with momentum can pretty quickly put a dent in a pan-syllabus field. But often those sprints are an unwinding of latent potential - the range may be limited to a season or two before they have to slow down and recharge the fundamental technique.

    The weak syllabus point system can contribute to the blurring of levels a bit, but it happens even at collegiate comps with aggressive systems - couples who don't compete very often won't place out that fast, even if they are in the top half of a final once or twice per semester. The biggest thing moving people on may be a desire for new challenges - or to restore treasured permissions (if the costume rule revisions don't turn out a bit more reasonable, novice - or prechamp in its abscence - may suddenly be the in thing amongst those who don't want to replace their shoes)
  15. Laura

    Laura New Member

    Personally, I don't like the change at all -- even though I benefit from it mightily.
  16. Laura

    Laura New Member


    You'd be suprised. Steps do not a dancer make, after all. My ex-partner and I used to make finals dancing our Bronze routines, and he had only been doing ballroom for about three months the first time it happened.

    Well, in the Pre-Novice event K. & I danced in last weekend, I think we were the only couple dancing gold steps. From what I could see (hard to see, as I was dancing) I think two of the couples were Bronze and the other two were Silver. And we only won because of a Rule 11 that Silver couple that almost beat us had a really really good chance of winning. K. & I are a little lucky that we did win, so we're certainly not resting on our laurels before the next comp....
  17. Kitty

    Kitty New Member

    you would be surprised...
  18. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    I must say, I've never seen a case where a couple was forced to move out of a category too quickly under the 3-point system. Someone must have a friend on the DanceSport Council...
  19. DanceAm

    DanceAm New Member

    I agree with Joe, I can't see someone actually earning 3 points and not be ready for the next level. With the stiff competition I sometimes see, if you win point in a lower level, you still do rather well in the next level.

    I actually pointed out of bronze because of a point I earned in Silver. Points in Silver move down to bronze, and since the points were in Adult A, they also moved up to Senior 1.

    But this scenario might be the reason for the change. That Silver point I earned was worth 1 point in Adult A Silver, the heat I actually competed in. Since I dance Adult A and Senior 1, that one point also counts in Senior 1, now 1 point = 2.

    Since I was technically still eligible to dance Bronze, the Silver point also counted in Adult A Bronze and Senoir 1 Bronze, 2 more points.

    That makes that 1 Silver point I earned worth 4 total.

    Be that as it may, I want to reiterate that I still agree with Joe.
  20. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Wow! That's confusing. The points earned at certain level can also count in a "parallel" or higher level? :? I understand the philosophy behind points counting at a lower level, meaning silver counting for bronze.

    But the rest I missed, DanceAm. (It is kinda early in the morning too. My brain's not functioning properly, yet. :oops: :lol: )

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