Ballroom Dance > Dancing down

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by muyv, Dec 23, 2012.

  1. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    Yes and no. There are clearly people who move up to Prechamp because they're tired of syllabus and want to dance open material, but don't really have the foundation needed to be successful at it. These are the people syncopationator, et al. are talking about. So they toil away at their open patterns until they figure out they need to improve the foundation those figures are built on.
  2. Jananananana

    Jananananana Active Member

    I'm not sure what's wrong with that.

    You want to compete at a level that's very different from what you're currently dancing. So, you move into Open. You don't do well. You realize you need to work on your basics. Or you realize your flexibility needs work. Or you realize your stamina sucks. Or you realize you can't spin quickly enough. So you do that until your placements in Open are better. Great, that's awesome. That's how you become a better competitive dancer.
    Mr 4 styles likes this.
  3. Mr 4 styles

    Mr 4 styles Well-Known Member

    not a darn thing !!! if its what makes the couple enjoy their dancing
    syncopationator likes this.
  4. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    Then I'm not sure what you're complaining about. Are you saying there's something wrong with a couple dancing syllabus long enough to officially point out, taking that time to develop a solid foundation of technique?
  5. Jananananana

    Jananananana Active Member

    I wasn't complaining about anything. You may want to reread my posts. I believe the OP was concerned that she didn't spend enough time in syllabus before pointing out. She was also saying couples hang out in prechamp even though she feels their technique isn't up to it. I was defending couples who choose to be more competitive and challenge themselves by dancing in higher levels. I see no reason to be upset about pointing out - I think it's a great accomplishment.

    I do get upset when people dance bronze even after pointing out. Or when I see a "newcomer" who has been a "newcomer" for the past two years. Or when there's a couple who is obviously a higher level dancing in a lower level for the sole reason of WINNING. If you need to work on syllabus, then work on it but compete at the appropriate level.
    danceronice and dlliba10 like this.
  6. muyv

    muyv Member

    hmmn, maybe let me clarify a little bit. The points of my original (and the subsequent) post are
    1. Those who hasn't pointing out at a level according to the competition rules need not get peer pressure to move up.
    2. Those who did move up fairly quickly should be cautious in making that decision. They should consider the possibility that it might serve their dancing better to focus on basics for a longer time, especially if they place lower than multiple couples who dances a lower level.
    3. I wish everybody stop moving up so quickly, so we can see better quality basics in lower levels.

    I think everybody agrees people shouldn't continue to dance a level after they have pointed out by the rules. There is no question about that. And as indicated in the subsequent post, I explained my personal bar for not dancing down is a little stricter than that. I think a couple should move up if they win the national title (even if they haven't point out). This is actually the case in all National winning couples I've seen. I'm talking about Amateur here. Pro/Am has quite a few competitions that is of a national status if not the exact name, so it is perfectly understandable if someone who won at USDC still wants to compete at the level at Ohio.

    I was discussing only the case where people have not technically pointing out, but being called "dancing down" (in a not so flattering manner).

    I don't think my personal case really matter for this discussion, but just for the sake of understanding where my point of view come from: I never ever pointed out at any level according to the rules, I don't think I even make half way through the points to point out. We moved up after placing well in National competitions. It became obvious then that we had to move up to open level to have more competition. However, I think one of the major reason that we placed well was because other people moved out of my level too early.

    In addition, I have heard this comment on more than one occasion: "we have danced too long to be in XXX level". XXX could be anywhere from Bronze from PreChamp. That to me always sounds like too much ego, too little confidence. And I think if they competed in that XXX level longer, it would serve their dancing better, it would increase the competition at that level, it would serve the whole competition scene better.

    I actually find that Pro/Am dancers are much more conservative in their levels. The pro/am close silver level is at least on par with the gold level at USA Dance, if not quite a bit better. And I think this has something to do with the fact that the Pro has a lot of say on which level the Pro/Am couple is dancing. And their experience has lead them to decide to stay in basics longer. In another post, the pros are quoting 2 to 3 years for their students to progress out of Bronze. I think in the Am/Am level, many are already dancing gold in their third year. Maybe Am/Am couples progress faster because they can practice more, but that much faster.

    I think we are actually mostly in agreement here. None of us agrees with"dance in a lower level for the SOLE reason of WINNING.". And none of us agree with "dancing bronze even after pointing out". As about those who hasn't pointed out technically. Well... all of us are biased in our opinions based on our own life experience. We saw two side of the coin on this issue because we each think of the particular real life cases that we witnessed. My thoughts come from the above experience. Jannanana think of those two year long newcomers or people register lower for the sole reason of "winning". It helps to understand where our opinions come from. Cheers :)
  7. muyv

    muyv Member

    Yes, I understand this. But I was not talking about what is point out according to USA Dance. I was talking about in what situation, I would consider a couple dancing down, even though they haven't technically pointed out.

    Thanks. Had no idea about this. interesting to know.

    I agree, that's why I wish more dancers stop moving up so quickly, and let there be more quality dancing, more competition at Bronze, Silver, Gold level, but not that everybody rush to hover at PreChamp, and no real competition happens on lower levels.
    Gorme and smidra86 like this.
  8. smidra86

    smidra86 Active Member

    the problem with am/am is:
    1. at the collegiate comps, mostly in the new england area that I know of, they have a time out rule in prebronze and bronze of how many semesters you have danced, so you get a false sense of I've been in a level for too long so I should move up when you get to higher levels like silver and gold
    2. I have noticed collegiate dancers don't listen much to their coaches about what level they should be at
    3. there is a level or peer pressure in collegiate
    4. there is a false sense of level in collegiate comps and ndca/usadance comps in that sense I mean that some people think that just because they dance a certain level in a collegiate comp that they should dance that level at more national competitions which is incorrect, in my opinion, because the level of dancing at more national competitions is so much higher and more difficult.
    syncopationator likes this.
  9. Gorme

    Gorme Active Member

    And when they graduate from college and look for an amateur partner for the non-collegiate circuit, they think they're a higher level than the last level they competed at in college.
  10. Jananananana

    Jananananana Active Member

    May I remind you, little me, that you wanted to skip syllabus entirely and I convinced you otherwise. Ehem ehem.
    syncopationator, famfam and dlliba10 like this.
  11. stash

    stash Well-Known Member

    But I also feel there is something to knowing where you want to go and how fast you want to get there. As long as you have the time, dedication, and coaching--I don't think it really takes that long to move from syllabus to open. But you need to be willing to jump through the syllabus hopes (and I mean learning and gaining knowledge--not just solely competing because that can lead to mix signals about placement) and getting that technique from a coach that is needed. And I think you can powerhouse through it with private instruction. I've seen it happen before. Then you can start with open--continue on the technique from syllabus--learning the "new technique" and new choreography and still going back to basics at the same time.

    I know there is another thread about competition placements, but there is a lot that goes into placements so I do not believe that should be the sole judge of where you are. It's more than just technique and choreography--there is also presentation and other factors that come into play. I believe placements can help, but I think your coach's input is far more valuable than competition results.
    frotes and dlliba10 like this.
  12. smidra86

    smidra86 Active Member

    Let me remind you, that you didn't actually convince me otherwise. And regardless, i did actually skip most of syllabus without placing out. I competed in gold Latin twice and won once and moved up to open.
  13. Terpsichorean Clod

    Terpsichorean Clod Well-Known Member

    I know one couple who danced only bronze figures in a collegiate champ event and got respectable placements (they had open routines but chose not to use them).
  14. stash

    stash Well-Known Member

    I have seen this done as well in open prelim rounds then for finals they went for their full open routines
  15. smidra86

    smidra86 Active Member

    I have actually seen the opposite done (sort of) by Riccardo and Yulia, in the prelims they do they full routines, and then in the final I have seen them do a very basic rumba, for example. It has a few tricks but you can clearly see basic steps like fan and alemana etc.
  16. Mengu

    Mengu Well-Known Member

    Or perhaps, it simply appears this way because, you know, you're watching a bunch of pros on the floor. :cool:

    Especially in Standard, the quality of movement a pro brings to a partnership is mountains ahead of what you can expect from two syllabus level amateurs.

    It depends on the couple. I know couples who moved out of bronze in one year, I know couples who stay in bronze for 5-6 years. Also, Am/Am couples don't make decisions independently of their instructors. If our instructor suggests that we stay at our current level or suggests we move to the next, we will likely listen to her. This doesn't seem all that different than decisions in Pro/Am. I also know some Pro/Am students who will insist they move up a level despite their instructor's advice against it, or insist that they stay at the same level despite an instructor wanting to move them up, so there are always those who will break the mold. It's difficult to make blanket statements for either crowd.

    And one last note, everyone's dance journey is different. It's unwise to presume we know why a couple is still dancing bronze after five years, or why the couple that was dancing bronze last year is now dancing open. It's best to accept it, and look to our own journeys.
  17. debmc

    debmc Well-Known Member

    Yes, I saw people dancing at Ohio and USDC in bronze, who have been dancing for quite awhile, but they clearly had personal goals to win titles in bronze, so while they may have appeared to be dancing down, they just wanted to win a title in bronze before moving up. Maybe at another comp they would have won in silver, but here they knew that the bronze level was more appropriate.
  18. debmc

    debmc Well-Known Member

    On the flip side... judging and placements are so subjective, that some students are content to move up once they are placing in the top three of their heats... assuming that their heats are semi/quarter finals.
  19. Leon Theou

    Leon Theou Active Member

    You may be thinking of the "basic figures" dances. Per WDC rules, all Championships in Standard and Latin have one dance per round chosen by lottery to be restricted to "the Basic Figures listed in the currently recognised Technique Books applicable to each style". The lottery is held before the start of the first round, and the first five rounds will have a different basic dance, then it loops back around. So yes, there is probably a video out there of the entire World Professional Latin floor doing syllabus paso.
    Bailamosdance likes this.
  20. debmc

    debmc Well-Known Member

    Over in the pro am world... I have seen students win in open rounds dancing their closed syllabus, because their technique was so good.

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