Salsa > Dile Que No vs. CBL

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by GTO Bruin, Feb 23, 2007.

  1. GTO Bruin

    GTO Bruin Member

    I dance both salsa on1 and rueda de casino. I recognize how different each style feels and looks. However, I've never really discerned much difference between a dile que no and a cross body lead. I've noticed other posts referencing a difference. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
  2. thespina13

    thespina13 New Member

    I think dile que no is more circular, in that the lead is turning slightly, along with the lady. A cross body lead happens when the man is stationary for a count while the lady passes in a straight line across him, the lead turning AFTER the lady passes as they face each other on the opposite side.

    But I could be wrong.
  3. devane

    devane New Member

    A Lo Cubano

    Yes, Dile Le Que No is more circular. I've recently started LA style from learning a Cuban Hybrid style. There are subtle differences in application.

    CBL and the 1st part of DQN look similar but are quite different. Even if someone who knows Cuban style performs a CBL it won't be difficult but the way they get around would be different: circular not straight with no snapping around on 3 & 7.

    Ignoring the 2nd part of Dile Que No and concentrating on the first 8 beats, the main difference is the guy only rotates 90° and the girl rotates 270°. They don't face each other after the 8 beats.

    Without number of degrees. The guy leads an open-back on the 1,2,3...(doesn't always happen, could be just a basic) facing North. Note it is possible for the guy to rotate on 3 but I don’t see it much. I do it though. On the 5,6,7 he faces West at the same time bringing the girl around (anticlockwise) so she is facing the same direction (West). Then you continue into the 2nd part of Dile Que No......
    I would also add the guy doesn’t have to get out of the way as much because she is not travelling in slots. She turns/rotates in front of the guy.

    I would point out that the left hand plays a role a little to help rotate the girl around but the right hand is the most important hand in leading. You are not just leading her forward in a straight line with your right hand. A one handed lead with the right wouldn’t work to well because you would loose contact along the way. The guy only rotates 90°, not enough to maintain contact for the duration of the move. The girl is on your left side after the 8 beats.
    I saw some post recently about this. That teacher may be doing a CBL "A Lo Cubano". It works just a well as any other way.

    I personally don't like doing the 2nd part of DQN. It’s very impersonal dancing with someone at your side. I normally do 1 whole DQN and move on quickly.

    I doubt I’ll be doing CBL the correct way after already dancing maybe a million DQNs. It's not really a concern. It’ll just be circular & smoother CBL.:cool:
    It doesn't interfere with the follow if I snap around or not. As long as I get out of the way for her to follow through.
  4. Sagitta

    Sagitta Well-Known Member

    hmmm...I sort of remember an argument that someone made a while back about them being very different and a discussion it. So sad that I cannot find it... :-(
  5. quixotedlm

    quixotedlm New Member

    slot vs. no-slot :)
  6. devane

    devane New Member

    You really need 2 video clips that teach each one so you can see clearly how they work. A glance at a demo of someone dancing each one will not explain the motion invloved. Some may even perceive they are the same.

    Explaining steps and describing motion and talking about the feeling of a certain lead has it's limitations when typed into a keyboard. I've seen diagrams of steps :confused: They make sense when you know it already but doesn't mean a thing if you don't.
    I could explain the difference between a Wing Chun or a Karate punch (which are very different in developing power) but look at Youtube comments and see how people interpret things by merely glancing. They are also many uneducated comments about salsa clips too.

    I've looked for a decent demo of Dile Que No and couldn't find a good version. Some are doing it more like a CBL ending up facing each other and are not doing the DQN steps side by side (hybrid style I guess).

    That would be a main point. The way you move and where you end up is different. Because I've just started with LA but the vast majority of the town I live in is Cuban style, I have to think "to slot or not to slot" (that is the question) ;). Nah not really.......just have to convert things to cuban.

    It is not a major thing though. I wouldn't worry too much about the difference. It's not a obstacle preventing you from dancing with another style.
    These are just basics steps. I know 1 or 2 La dancers who dance with ease with Cuban style dancers ie me. It's not like On1 vs On2.
  7. Danish Guy

    Danish Guy New Member

    There’s a big difference in the two moves.

    In the cross body the leader steps out to the side, letting the lady pass walking a straight line from A to B, and the step back on the line facing the lady.

    In the dile que no the leader don’t step away from the lady, but lead the lady around him from A to B, and then just turn to face the lady. The lady’s path can be circular around the leader, og a straight line out and a straight line back depending on the style.
  8. MacMoto

    MacMoto Active Member

    Here's a clip teaching how to do a CBL:
    You can see how the leader steps out of the slot, lets the follower walk straight across and closes back onto the slot.

    I couldn't find a DQN instruction clip, but here's a slow demo clip.
    Note the relative positions of the leader and follower esp. on the 1, 3 and 5, and see how they differ from the same beats in a CBL.
    Another clip -- showing a rueda, with some overhead shots. Some of the overhead shots include DQN (e.g., 4:55-4:57), and you can see how each follower is swung *around* her leader, tracing a fan or almost triangular shape. You can also see that, on the 1, the leader faces away from the follower as he steps forward (into the circle in a Rueda), and that where he steps marks the top of the fan/triangle of the follower's steps (she hits that top spot on the 3).
  9. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    The first guy on this cbl. video, needs to TAKE lesssons-- not give them. Cardinal mistake, when the partner moves across you, or in an opposing direction, the back break is always very understated so as not to interfere with ( in this case ) the ladies direction. The larger the back break, the more contrary it is to the flow of the lady .
  10. MacMoto

    MacMoto Active Member

    Devane, what's the 2nd part of Dile Que No? I've always assumed DQN was an 8-beat move, just like the CBL.
  11. azzey

    azzey Member

    The best place to look for comparisons of Puero Rican/NY/LA style salsa vs Cuban Casino re the structure and footwork of a CBL vs DQN is on YouTube. Try comparing French Puerto Rican style dancers doing Rueda vs native Cuban Casino dancers doing Rueda. Just because they're both doing Rueda doesn't mean they dance the same.

    Talking with people telling you about their own preferences isn't going to show you the whole picture.
  12. devane

    devane New Member

    That's the way we do it but at the end they are standing side by side (facing the circle. When one learns DQN for the 1st time this is the version you learn. We do have a DQN where you face each other at the end, basically a CBL.
    Same name different move.
    The teacher keeps reminding the guys to move out of the way in this case BUT it is labeled DQN too! because of recent congresses they say "CBL" also (but they're not really doing a cbl LA style). But that is different from the DQN used in rueda or at the end of a sequence, you are facing the centre of a circle, not each other.

    My teacher is from Havana. We have had visiting teachers where calls and execution, names of technique vary but a DQN to me is the rueda version facing the circle and the version where you face each other is a CBL Cuban style which some people also call DQN.
    We don't hold the girl by her wrists. It looks horrible!

    It can be an infinite beat move. Some girls will even list it as their most boring move as some guys over-use it. After the CBL type move is done........

    You are facing the same direction (facing the centre on the circle) standing side by side, the guy on the right.
    1,2,3 : Girl steps back on her right, exactly the same as your basic, coming back to neutral on 3. The guy mirrors the move going back on his left.

    5,6,7: Girl steps forward on her left, turning towards her partner.
    On the 5 you push him slightly away with your left hand. This is the "QUE NO".
    Dile le Que No, tell him no. It comes from this part of the move.
    Your 6,7 you return back, standing side by side facing the circle. the guy mirrors your motion.

    In Rueda you continue doing this last part until another call is made.
    In dancing some guys who don't know many moves will do this end part for ever or about 50% of a song. I personally do 1 and go....

    Note in rueda if the caller calls something on the 5,6,7 you keep this direction(square up) and go from there. The centre of the circle is North (1,2,3) and your 5 is East (Girl), your next move starts from this direction.

    Noting direction is vital because you must finish your moves facing the circle.
    An experienced caller knows what moves work from certain direction. People who have never called Rueda before will mess up because they think they can call moves at random. People think the caller doesn't have to think.
    They call "Sombrero" from DQN which ends people facing the wall wondering what happened. I've seen this a few times.
    Even when I sit in on a class and there learning a simple move like "Setenta Complicado" I start in reference to the circle.

    About the vids
    The LA is slightly different as to what I've learnt (I'm doing LA Style too at the moment) but the way I do CBL/DQN is slightly different anyway as I steal styling elements from other dancers Al Espinoza, an idea or two from Salomon & Jose Valencia and Nuno (Nuno Y Vanda). As long as you lead right and don't interfere with the lady balance/momentum you can do it whatever way you want.
    The 1st Cuban vid he is dancing with one person so he kinda squares up straight away.
    The other one at the beginning looked like those Sexual Educational Videos that were all the rage in the 90's. Some of the DQN ended up side by side but quickly went on to the next moves without waiting.
    It's hard to get good clips of Cuban Salsa I suppose.
  13. Sagitta

    Sagitta Well-Known Member

    huh! I have called sombrero from DQN and people do not have a problem at all. None. Nada. I have not a clue what you are talking about. I have never had an issue of people facing the wrong direction no matter what move I call out or in what order I do so.
  14. devane

    devane New Member

    Maybe it's go to do to with the style. I'll explain from my style.
    Guys POV
    You're facing the centre of the circle doing the 2nd part of DQN waiting for the next move (facing North on 1,2,3). Sombrero is called (5,6,7). You're now facing West (Centre of circle on your right) On the 1,2,3 signal, 5,6,7 do sombrero (still West, centre of circle to your right). We always end rueda sequences with another DQN. Our Rueda version of this will end you up facing south, facing the wrong direction. Because of this a simple sombrero is always preceded by an enchufla to switch sides. Facing east (centre of circle to your left) Sombrero + DQN will end up facing North again.
    Some moves you can call without the enchufla like Sententa, some must have the enchufla beforehand.
    At times in the class the teachers may ask someone to try to be the caller to see how well they speak spanish. Ending up facing the wall always happens. You can overturn to compensate , that can happen anway with very long sequences but most of the time people just end up facing the wall laughing.
    I've seen this happen at one of the bars that play salsa here. A Mexican guy with limited Salsa skill started a rueda and had people finishing facing the wrong direction. A salsa teacher who normally is the caller there (not my school) took over the rest of the song. I've even happened to 2 junior teachers I know. She said "All I've done before is follow what has been called, I didn't know why at times when I called something I ended up the wrong way round". We are often told when doing long rueda sequences to always bear in mind the centre of the circle and check what direction you are facing at certain points.
  15. MacMoto

    MacMoto Active Member

    Isn't this Guapea?

    And I still don't see how Sombrero can't work after DQN or how you need Enchufe to switch sides...
  16. devane

    devane New Member

    Just saw a clip of Guapea. Ah another standardisation issue.... In our school this is part of DQN and isn't distinguished. It is part of DQN. There is no call therefore no name.

    This is obviously an issue of angles and application of the moves which may vary from school to school (In cuba town to town, we have had some guests from Cuba with different ways of doing things).

    You'll have to take my word for it that within the Cuban style we practice this is very clear if you are a caller. Maybe it's the way Sombrero is performed or ended. But from our point of view if you perform a sombrero from the 2nd part of DQN (Guapea, new word for me) the guy starts and finishes the sombrero with the centre of the circle on his right. DQN always comes next leaving facing you the wall.

    Our style is not unique, I've seen clips before the same. Also at a recent congress the cuban teacher taught the same way (either Henry Herrara or Rafa y Lien). I didn't go to the class because I've been to one where after a "Dale/Dame" 3 guys were together looking confused. We didn't even dance for 10 seconds because it was so imcompatible from what we've done before.
    I guess this is why there is confusion.
  17. Sagitta

    Sagitta Well-Known Member

    Aha it is your move. For sombrero that I do you lead the follower across you 123, do the veil 567, and then 123 prep for dqn, followed by dqn at the end to get her back into position. Simple. Setenta, enchufla...almost all moves have a sequence that gets one into the right position at teh end of the move. Not sure about this philosophy that has one in the wrong orientation so easily...really. Makes it more difficult than it needs to be. I'm all about making a dance fun and easy. We can stich together a whole series of pretzel like moves to make it more difficult and so I wonder why a simple move starts by being so inherently complex.

    And facing outwards does not need to be the wrong orientation. I forgot the name but there is a move designed to get people facing outwards and then moves are called in that position (It's been a while...). So if people get in that position, facing outwards, simply call another move to get them out of it..
  18. GTO Bruin

    GTO Bruin Member

    We call facing outward 'inverting the circle'. Ironically, the move we use most often to invert the circle is DQN (I love when thing come full circle...especially with rueda :) ). So many moves, particularly during performances, are best done inverted.

    I'm glad to see such robust discussion in response to my question. After reading the posts, I realize that there are a lot of differences between DQN and CBL. I guess both feel so natural, that I didn't appreciate them. Thanks DFers.
  19. thespina13

    thespina13 New Member

    Hah!!! Thank you! You want to come up here and tell some of the guys around here that?
  20. squirrel

    squirrel New Member

    Really? I know some moves when it is necessary. I am speaking about some variations of Frisbee (LA style dancer here) when the guy is supposed to switch hands and lead the lady into the free turn. Since most of the times it is hard to grab the fingers, I just grab the wrist and signal the CBL with left turn. :)

    But generally I do not lead or like to be led by the wrists.

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