Do you REALLY understand rule 11? Tie for 2nd...

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by elisedance, Feb 17, 2008.

?

Who won in the tie for 2nd place? (see post #1)

  1. Couple A

    26 vote(s)
    55.3%
  2. Couple B

    10 vote(s)
    21.3%
  3. Tied

    2 vote(s)
    4.3%
  4. Don't have a frigging clue

    9 vote(s)
    19.1%
  1. elisedance

    elisedance New Member

    OK. A real example that resulted in a tie for 2nd place. There were 5 couples, 5 judges and the number of placings for couple A and B were (each number is the number of placings at that level and above):
    __1st__1-2__1-3__1-4
    A__4____7___15___19
    B__2____8___14___19

    So the question is which couple was 2nd. And just to make this fun, please answer the poll.
     
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I voted B but then realized this was a mistake. I'd somehow assumed a 3 dance event (8 is a majority of 15), but that obviously isn't the case. If it's a four dance event (20 marks total), then A wins the tie (gets second) because they are the first to a majority (15 for 3rd place) of 20. Should work for five dances as well since 15 is still a majority.
     
  3. elisedance

    elisedance New Member

    Just walked in the door after driving back. Sorry if I did not give you enough info, I thought I had it all covered (reb also PMed).

    There were four dances in total.
     
  4. avab

    avab New Member

    There is still a missing piece of information. It isn't only how many dances, it's how many judges! Without knowing how many judges and how many dances, it's impossible to know what the majority is.

    If, for example, this were a two dance event with 5 judges, then couple B would take 2nd place (10 total marks, majority is 6). If it is a four dance event with 5 judges (a fairly standard configuration), the total marks available are then 20 and the majority would be 11. Under that scenario, couple A who has a greater majority of 3 or better placements than couple B would be placed 2nd overall. Want more info...pm me.
     
  5. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    avab, I missed it my first time through as well, but the first post says 5 couples and 5 judges. ;)
     
  6. avab

    avab New Member

    Yes, and I was trying to edit my post even as you replied!
     
  7. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    oops, sorry! :lol:
     
  8. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    I don't get it. Since when are the total marks for a 4-dance event tallied? The winner of a multi-dance is based on the couples' placings in each dance.
     
  9. elisedance

    elisedance New Member

    With four dances one couple can come in 2,2,3,3 and another 3,3,2,2 in which case they are tied. Thats when chapter 11, oops, rule 11 kicks in.

    [Chapter 11 is when all your money plus some is tied up in dancing...].
     
  10. BasicsFirst

    BasicsFirst New Member

    LOL... ha, and then the last couple remaining after all the 'Chapter 11's' wins their country's national championship (he-he).

    More seriously though to summarize succinctly, Rule 11 essentially says that the marks for ALL the dances (for the couples that are TIED) are consolidated and the winner of the position (in question) is determined by looking at the marks for all dances in the final, as if it were all ONE dance. Including the MAJORITY rule that Chris noted above. In my experience it's the 'requirement for the majority' factor most couples overlook/misunderstand when I'm explaining Rule 11 to them.
     
  11. NielsenE

    NielsenE Active Member

    The other often overlooked aspect to rule 11, is the definition of a majority. (It shouldn't be an issue, but often is). If you have 4 dances, with five judges -- so there's 20 "judges" in play for Rule 11, the majority is 11 (not 10 as many competitors seem to think).

    Two weekends ago I had a close rule 11 pop up while scrutineering.
    Couple A: 1 1.5 2 1.5
    Couple B: 2 1.5 1 1.5

    IIRC it was a 1 mark difference separating them under Rule 11.
     
  12. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    so... the definitive answer to the original question is... (still not getting it...)
     
  13. elisedance

    elisedance New Member

    The definitive answer is that Chris was right all along - couple A came in 2nd.

    And of course we were couple B :( The only good thing is that I think I understand rule 11 now :)
     
  14. cindymoose

    cindymoose New Member

  15. elisedance

    elisedance New Member

    And for the rest of us RUN LIKE $%^&* :p
     
  16. JoepiE

    JoepiE New Member

    LOL
     
  17. reb

    reb Active Member

    Larinda gave a good synopsis in another thread:

    http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=23702&page=12

    Here are the 11 rules (cut and pasted from the USA Dance rulebook) in 2 posts:

    7.2. SKATING SYSTEM OF JUDGING
    The following is a description of the Skating System of Judging, which is used in DanceSport:
    The Marking of Adjudicator's Scores
    1. In all rounds each judge must vote for the number of couples demanded by the Chair of Adjudicators.
    2. In the Final round each judge shall place all the competing couples in order of merit in each of the
    dances.
    3. In the Final round the judge shall mark his/her first couple 1, his/her second couple 2, his/her third 3,
    and so on in each of the dances.
    4. A judge must not tie couples for any place in the Final of any dance.
    Note: - Number of Couples to Dance in a Final
    a) In the Final round the open system of marking may be used.
    b) When judges are instructed to select six couples for a Final and six couples are clearly chosen
    only that number shall dance. The same procedure would be observed if the Chair's
    instructions were for any other number.
    c) If it is intended that six couples shall dance in a Final and through a tie more couples qualify
    for consideration the number to dance shall be decided by the Chair. The same procedure
    would be observed if it is intended to have a Final of any other number.

    USA Dance: DanceSport Rulebook 2008-2009
    Page 41

    The Allocation of Positions in Each Dance


    5. The winner of a particular dance is the couple who is placed first by an absolute majority of the


    judges; second, the couple who is placed second or higher by an absolute majority. The remaining


    positions are allocated in a similar way.


    If More than One Couple have a Majority for the Same Position


    6. The couple with the largest majority shall be allocated the position under review, and the couple with


    the next largest majority, the following position.


    Note:


    a) If the position under review is the "2nd" and two couples have a majority of "2nd and higher"


    places, the couple with the larger majority shall be placed "2nd" and the other couple "3rd.”


    b) We now examine the remaining competitors' markings, and the couple with the largest majority


    of "3rd and higher" places shall be allocated the next position, which in this example, is the


    "4th.”


    c) If none of the remaining couples has a majority of "3rd and higher" places, then include the


    "4th" places (and, if necessary, lower places).


    If Two or More Couples have an Equal Majority for the Same Position


    7. If such majorities are equal, then the lowest total of marks given by those judges who form the


    majority, shall determine the allocation of the position under review.


    Note:


    a) If the position under review is the "2nd" and two couples have a similar majority of "2nd and


    higher" places, the couple with the lower total of marks given by those judges who form the


    majority, shall be allocated the "2nd" position and the other couple the "3rd.”


    b) See Notes under Rule 6.


    c) If the totals of marks are equal, then the next lower place (or places, if necessary), in respect of


    the particular couples concerned, must be included.


    Note:


    a) It should be noted that only the couples who have a majority for the position under review (say,


    for example, the "2nd" position) must be considered at this stage, and only their "3rd" places


    (and, if necessary, lower places) should be referred to, until the "2nd" position has been


    allocated.


    b) A definite result will eventually be obtained unless the remaining markings are exactly the


    same, and should the latter be the case, there will, of course, be a tie for "2nd" position. If two


    couples were concerned, they would be allocated "2 1/2" each.


    c) See Notes under Rule 6.


    If No Couple receives a Majority for the Position Under Review


    8. If no couple receives a majority of "Firsts" then the winner is the couple who are placed "2nd and


    higher" by a majority of judges.


    If no couple receives a majority of "1st" and "2nd" places, then the "3rd" places (and if necessary,


    lower places) must be included. (Subject to Rules 6 and 7.)


    The "2nd" and other positions should be calculated in a similar way.
     
  18. reb

    reb Active Member

    Compilation of the Final Summary


    9. When all the dances have been concluded, the order ascertained for each dance shall be carried to


    another sheet, showing the position achieved by each couple in each dance. The first in each dance


    shall be given one mark, the second two, and so on. These place marks received by each couple shall


    be added up and the couple with the lowest aggregate shall be the winner.


    If there is a Tie for a Place in the Final Summary


    USA Dance: DanceSport Rulebook 2008-2009


    Page 42

    10. If this results in a tie for first place, the winner shall be the couple who has actually won the greater


    number of dances.


    If there is a tie for the "2nd" place, the "2nd" prize shall be awarded to the couple who has obtained


    "2nd and higher" in the greatest number of dances. If the couples have obtained the same number of


    "2nd and higher" place marks, then add the "2nd and higher" place marks together and the couple


    with the lowest total should be awarded second prize.


    Note:


    a) If more than two couples tie for second place, the second prize shall be awarded to the couple


    who has obtained the most "2nd and higher" place marks. Still only considering the remaining


    "tied" couples, the "3rd" prize is awarded to the couple who has won the most "3rd and higher"


    place marks.


    b) If there is a tie for any remaining places they shall be decided on similar principles.


    11. If after applying Rules 9 and 10 this still results in a tie, then treat the judges' marks of the "tied"


    couples over all dances, as for an individual dance (Rules 5 to 8. If this still results in a tie, there


    shall be at the discretion of the organizers of the competition, either a re-dance or the prizes for the


    places under review shall be divided.


    a) If the tie is for first place, a majority of "1st" marks to the credit of either of the "tied"


    couples (4 dances-5 judges-majority 11) would win. If neither of the "tied" couples obtain


    a majority of "firsts" see Rule 8.


    b) If the tie is for second place, a majority of "2nd and higher" marks to the credit of either of


    the "tied" couples would be necessary. If neither of the "tied" couples obtain a majority of


    "2nd and higher" marks see Rule 8.


    c) The "3rd" or any other "tied" places should be decided on similar principles.


    d) If 3 (or more) couples tie for a place under Rule 10 (say, 2nd place) Rule 11 is applied to all


    couples concerned in the tie, and the best couple is awarded the "2nd" place. Rule 10 is


    now applied to the remaining "tied" couples for consideration of the place now under


    review, which is the "3rd.” However, if they now tie for "3rd" place under Rule 10, then


    Rule 11 is again applied to these "tied" couples, commencing this time with the "3rd and

    higher" judge's marks in the individual dances.
     
  19. amiko

    amiko New Member

    Dang, I chose "tie". This is too complicated for my little head...~goes back to practicing her half natural~.
     
  20. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    At Heritage the last couple of days the Open Pro Standard was decided by rule 11, as was another event, maybe the Rhythm...can't remember exactly. When "Rule 11" was announced to have determined the outcome, there was an "ooooh" in the audience. ;-)
     

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