Ballroom Dance > Does CBMP imply a body position?

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by Chris Stratton, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    CBMP is defined as a foot position and perhaps by application as a direction of travel into it. But does it imply a body position as well? Restricting ourselves for a minute to the natural case, would your (or you teacher's) opinion be that:

    A) The hips are rotated into the foot, crossing the thighs?

    B) The hips remain square to the feet, minimizing thigh crossing?

    C) Somewhere in between, guided by _______?

    Historically, my opinion would have been A and it seems to work well for me, but the Irvine legacy book and a lot of the teachers I have been exposed to recently seem to be saying B.
  2. Mengu

    Mengu Well-Known Member

    Pretty sure my instructor would say C. But here are some thoughts...

    Wouldn't this depend on the figure?

    If you were doing say a natural weave, crossing the thigh would constrict movement, so it doesn't seem desirable, I'd think B would provide better freedom of movement. I've even been told to not put my feet quite on the same track, but close when going back in weave.

    If you were doing a curved feather, you might be looking for more rotation (into or out of the step), and A sounds better, so you're not bumping the lady off her space with a square hip.
  3. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I would say I have my thighs more crossed on a lowered or lowering step than one that maintains foot rise such as a weave action.
  4. suburbaknght

    suburbaknght Well-Known Member

    I would say A is CBMP, B is "slight CBMP."
  5. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Where would you use slight cbmp vs cbmp or across in cbmp?
  6. pruthe

    pruthe Member

    This has been a confusion factor for me too, but in reading DVIDA smooth manual in definitions section, it says CBMP is purely a foot position and CBM has to do with rotation of body and hips. It goes on to say that CBM and CBMP sometimes exist together in the same step, implying you can have one or the other by themselves. I don't have a DIVIDA international manual, but assume it says same there for CBMP/CBM definition. Regarding A/B/C, I think school of thought is probably involved in determining how actions are completed in different steps, so maybe need to ask main teacher on that.
  7. toothlesstiger

    toothlesstiger Well-Known Member

    The coaches I work with connect feet to hips, that is, foot direction determines hip direction. So, by that working definition, CBMP is (B). That being said, they define CBM as a movement of the upper torso, i.e., ribs and shoulders, relative to the hips. Which it would have to be. If your upper torso goes in opposition to your feet, the hips would pretty much have to be straight relative to your feet, i.e., square to your foot direction.
  8. VTDancer

    VTDancer Member

    I would have said A as well, but perhaps B is being used in certain situations in more recent years. One explanation may be that in the never ending quest for big fluid movements across the floor in the swinging dances A may be too constrictive. Take the Feather Step for example. The 2nd step for the Lady is RF back R side leading, and the third step is LF back in CBMP. I have heard certain pros say that the Lady should leave her hips "square" on these steps while at the same time rotating the top or shoulder line. The book and my early instruction would lead me to believe that A is what should be done here, but the more recent comments sound more like B.

    With tight crossing of the thighs it is certainly more constrictive and more difficult to produce swing, therefore almost all of the CBMP in Tango is of this type since we are activly trying to prevent swing. In Waltz and Foxtrot, however, we want to create swing and tight crossing of the thighs can be counterproductive.

    Another example would be the Wisk into the Chasse from Promanade in Waltz. Our current coach would like us to keep the top line consistent and in a good promanade shape, but allow for a slight elastic opening of the hips moving out into the Chasse. I think this might result in a movement as you describe in B. It certainly feels more comfortable than trying to move as you describe in A.
  9. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Interestingly, I feel that rotating into the leg permits more travel, because one can step deeper outside past the partner without the centers sliding past each other.
  10. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    I would say C, depending on the specific figure and the action one is trying to take.

    For example, I would have the hips turned into the moving foot in the CBMP step of the feather step, but that would be because of the outside partner position rather than because of the CBMP. In a contra check I would normally have the hips aligned square with the feet, though the upper body would be turned.
  11. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Interesting about the contra check, as I try to create that by using the knee to cross all four thighs, while feeling that the upper part of the hold breathes more than turns - generally, I feel reverse rotations more in the lower body than upper as I want to preserve the offset in the top. Similarly, I would say that I dance a left side lead with the body rotated relative to the feet but a right side lead with the body more square and the travel more diagonally across the feet towards my right side.
  12. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    I cross my thighs in the tango contra check, but I dance it with a forward and slightly across CBMP, rather than having both feet on exactly the same track.
  13. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    I would say it varies based on the goal for the step, and the partner's movement, and also your partner's size in relation to you. It also depends on the couple and what they are trying to achieve. Giampiero with his large chest would have a much different CBMP than Mirko. I don't think you can define something like this in black and white.
  14. suburbaknght

    suburbaknght Well-Known Member

    The third step of a contra check in preparation for a pivot.
  15. madmaximus

    madmaximus Well-Known Member

    B, definitely.

    I've never subscribed to A--with the usual caveat that there will always be anomalous exceptions where you do need them.

    There is a reason why CBM and CBMP are defined separately in the Standard branch of Ballroom--they differ in function, thus, one does not necessarily imply the other.

    As we progress to dance mastery, we will start to realize that CBMP is an effect, rather than a cause.

    Answering the "WHY you're doing a CBMP" question (rather than following rote instruction--ie CBMP as cause, rather than effect) will bring with it clarity as to its use and form.

  16. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Hmm, as with other backwards natural actions I probably toe in the moving foot, and may have a slight crossing of the thighs. But as this is standing foot on the line of moving foot and not the other way around it doesn't meet the definition of cbmp foot placement. During the actual pivot it is said that the free foot is held in cbmp, but the cbmp was created by the weight change changing the frame of reference.
  17. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I have tended to be of the opinion that cbm and cbmp are more easily distinguished by purpose than by appearance. I would also consider cbm to be an active inflection of a step, while cbmp is the result of preserving a pre- existing side lead and/or direction of travel across an additional step.
  18. suburbaknght

    suburbaknght Well-Known Member

    And I put my foot in my mouth as I confuse terminology. I'd been thinking "slight CBM." Just forget everything I've said this entire conversation.
  19. madmaximus

    madmaximus Well-Known Member

    Yes, it is unfortunate that when we are first taught CBM and CBMP, the perspective in which it is conveyed and learned is rote and foot-placement rather than as the resulting effect of a cause.

    Likewise, I breakdown cause (or purpose) to a simpler form: balance.

    More often than not, constructs such as CBM and CBMP are the result of a need for balance (whether individually or dually).

    Such need for balance may stem from the needs of expression (which in turn drives form, and therefore suggests the (CBM/CBMP) construct).

    BTW Chris, good topic.

  20. govnu

    govnu Member

    Select the answer based on the definition of CBMP

    To select the answer, first I would start to understand what the meaning of CBMP in International Ballroom Dance, I think it's better through the dance frequently utilizes: Tango.

    From the the beginner step: LF Tango Walk, CBMP is already applied. Most of the rest figures starting with LF are forward in CBMP.

    Don't Mix up CBM and CBMP, CBM is body movement, our upper body movement. However, CBMP is just where is our foot end position related to our supporting foot, NO BODY MOVEMENT. Just as In Line position the foot end position related to our partner foot; the difference is that the first is related to our supporting foot, the second is related to our partner opposite foot.

    There exists both CBM and CBMP in same figure, for example, the Natural Turn followed Chasse from PP. In this case, both CBM and CBMP, as well as Outside Partner are needed.

    To paraphrase the CBMP, after a step in CBMP, our feet are on the same LOD. For example, after LF moving forwards in CBMP, our RF toe will kick the LF heel if RF moves forwards without moving sidewards. By the same token, after LF moving backwards in CBMP, our RF heel will kick the LF toe if RF moves backwards without moving sidewards. Try it !

    I hope this can assist you to answer the multiple question by yourself.

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