"Figures of Argentine Tango" page

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Dave Bailey, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Clearly.

    Actually, it's very very easy to tell which movement is based around a pivot. Because there's a pivot in the movement. Funny that.

    As an exercise, I'll let you guess how to tell that a movement is based around a step.

    Thanks for the lesson.

    The pivot is one key element - and again you seem to be willfully missing the entire concept of the words "based around".

    You also seem to be ignoring my other 2 criteria for differentiation - the music and the embrace.

    But if you seriously believe that people pivot as much in close embrace, to traditional music, as they do in open embrace to non-traditional music (and vice versa), then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    My personal definition works for me. It seems clear, objective and measurable. But it's my personal definition. I was asked how I defined it, and I replied.
     
  2. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    'ere Are you being rude about me??? ;)
     
  3. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    but mathematically interesting, no?

    and exactly like
     
  4. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    I don't understand the reason of your harshness and sarcasm.
    I have nothing against pivots, nothing against open embrace, and nothing against non traditional music.
    I'm just trying to understand why you define that as nuevo.
    The pivot is a key element of tango at less since the floor of the ballrooms allowed it.
    I just asked for clarification about the first one because it was not very clear to me and because it is quite uncommon: it's the first time I hear of it.

    The second criterion has nothing to do with the dance, so I am ignoring it because we are talking about dance.

    The third criterion is the one apparently adopted by most of people: they just use "nuevo" as a synonim for "open embrace". I have nothing to object except the pointlessness of calling it in that way.
    I seriously believe that people pivot as much in tango salon, to traditional music, as they do in nuevo to non-traditional music, and maybe a little more.
    Unless you are not confusing tango salon with apilado I just can't understand why you think there should be less pivots.
     
  5. sixela

    sixela Active Member

    :confused:

    I have no such bias. Except against the caricature I just described, but to me that's not the definition of "nuevo". You're entitled to use whatever terms you're comfortable with; I just wanted to know what you meant.

    Clearly, pivots aren't so new (in fact, 1910-1925 tango used to have a lot of them even in what was the basic 'walking' style), and Villa Urquiza style, which isn't that new, uses more than some other traditional styles meant for a packed dance floor with several lanes.

    Now a pivotless colgada follwed by a volcada or a linear boleo, that I would call "nuevo". But that's just me, I don't have a particularly strict definition of nuevo.
     
  6. sixela

    sixela Active Member

    That depends on the embrace. There are close embraces that allow for pivots and others that don't, if "close" only requires chest contact to be called that.

    No problem with that. Discussing whose 'definition' of something is right is a fruitless exercise; as long as we all understand what others mean I think it's OK for us to use whatever makes sense.

    Same thing with 'salon', really. Some people will call 'salon' what others would call 'estilo del centro' and those others mean something different with salon (i.e. a close embrace style that actually does allow pivots and uses them more, and/or a dance style that uses the rhythm and melody differently).
     
  7. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I hope people are not conflating nuevo with open embrace. There are many older dancers who are very traditional and use an open embrace.

    • Juan Carlos Copes
    • Danel Baston
    • Pupi Castello
    • Juan Bruno
    • many more
     
  8. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    I wrote about the differences and similarities of Nuevo, Escenario, Fantasia, and Neo. The dancers you mentioned are of different origin concerning their style.
     
  9. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    The music has nothing to do with the dance? That's your position? Really? :confused:
    That synonym is incorrect. Or at least, massively incomplete.

    I seriously don't believe they do.

    So we'll have to simply disagree on that.

    Looking only at the embrace:

    • Close (parallel) embrace is not designed for lots of pivotting, neither is traditional tango music. It's designed for lots of lovely walking.
    • Similarly, open embrace is not designed for walking, it's designed to allow lots of flexibility and pivotting.
    But you clearly disagree, so I think we'll have to leave it there.
     
  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    Reducto ad Absurdum; = fat lady ochos.....
     
  11. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    The difference between the forward step of a (anti-clockwise) giro in close embrace, and a cross step in that direction, can seem fairly small.
     
  12. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    "The music is non traditional" is not a feature of the dance. It is a feature of the music.
    How the music is connected with the dance is another problem, which regards musicality and in this moment is out of discussion.
    If you think that nuevo cannot be considered a synonim of open embrace (you said that before!), why for the second time you are assuming that tango salon = close embrace and tango nuevo = open embrace?
    I recall that you are giving a definition of tango nuevo. I never denied that a strictly close and parallel embrace is not very suitable for pivots. My point is that both pivots and open embrace are very used in tango salon, belongs to a very old tradition and are danced to traditional music.
     
  13. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Personally, my view is that a style of dance is usually linked to a style of music. So it's silly trying to define a style of dance without referring to the type of music that you dance it to.

    Salsa dancing, for example, is danced to salsa music; there's a specific rhythm and tempo. Within the AT world, the same applies to milonga and vals - you'd be nuts to define those without mentioning the music. So I'm simply using that for my definition of nuevo.

    I don't see why you seem to want to divorce the dancing from the music - personally I think the music is quite an important factor in the dancing... :confused:

    Not just a synonym (you missed that before as well)

    I'm not. The embrace is one of three factors which I personally feel are important. And I've said why.

    Feel free to create your own definitions of course.

    I agree that pivots are used in traditional. Similarly, walks are used in nuevo. So your point is valid, but completely irrelevant.
     
  14. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Many people I know, rightly or wrongly refer to "Nuevo" when they mean:

    "Alternative/neo music danced with an emphasis on larger movements done with either no travel or long steps, utilizing fancy leg work like intertwining wraps, high boleos and suspended ganchos"
     
  15. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    This.

    I don't think it's necessarily a black/white proposition. Yes, the music and the dancing go hand in hand. But it's entirely possible to dance very traditional movements to alternative/electronic music, or very "non-traditional" movements to traditional music. And all that can be done with exquisite musicality. It doesn't mean that the music and the dancing are divorced from one another, but it does mean that the type of music is not necessarily the best indicator of style/type of AT. Nor is the embrace--because lots of "nuevo" movements can be done in close embrace, just as traditional movements can be done in open embrace.
     
  16. sixela

    sixela Active Member

    Strictly close and strictly parallel. There's a very close V-embrace that allows for pivots because it allows rolling into another (also close but more parallel) embrace, and some people may even refer specifically to that when they say "tango de salon" or "Villa Urquiza".
     
  17. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Strange, so we get into a style - taste discussion. I cannot understand at all when people stick inflexible to only one way of dancing.

    The music rules the style. Almost every of our so loved tango styles developed right in reaction to a change of the music style. So I dance extemly different if Biagi, Caló, Rodriguez, Pugliese, or GotanProject is played.
     
  18. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Yes. Actually I think that the key is not really the closeness, but the axis: shared axis makes pivots quite difficult, when not impossible.
    Villa Urquiza or "salon" style, being always on-axis, is especially suited for pivots, even in a very close embrace.
     
  19. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Heh, I don't even think that definition holds true for all cases. :) There are some salon dancers who use the shared axis in close, but allow for breaking it and opening into larger movements.
     
  20. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Sure.
    The same is true for me. And I also dance extremely different if Narcotango or Otros Aires, or Metallica is played.
    I dance different if early Pugliese or late Pugliese is played.
    And I often dance different also on different sections of the same piece.

    Now my question is: what this has to do with the definition of tango nuevo?
     

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