Tango Argentino > "Figures of Argentine Tango" page

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Dave Bailey, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. Wanderer2

    Wanderer2 New Member

    Sure you can - these possibilities come immediately to my mind:

    Stop it by placing youself for wrapping that leg around you and then
    - a rebound and continuing from there
    - keeping the wrap and walking CCW around the woman

    At the utmost leaning of the woman, then you can either
    - reverse it linerally or as boleo
    - land gently and put weight on the woman' circling foot and continue from there
    - stop the women in that maximun supension and drag her into a sostenida
    - increase the momentum and let her fly while you lift her and turn clockwise

    Stop it before the actual cross (I call it "faked volcada") and lead it out
    by linear or circular walking

    Most of these variations require a very good communication of the couple and very good stability in the woman's back - otherwise it can hurt badly.
  2. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Oh, please! There are so many variations with volcadas it's not even funny--which means it's possible to change your mind mid-stream. And I still very extremely strongly disagree that it makes the musicality any more or less difficult.

    On a slightly different tangent, and not directed specifically at you...I wonder how many nuevo detractors have actually taken the time to study it, understand it, and learn to dance it.
  3. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Yup. The leader has got to be good enough for things to be musical. Yes, the follower has to be good enough to follow, but she is (on the surface) less directly responsible for the musicality.

    Don't know about good stability, unless you just mean plain old good technique. Then, yeah...do it right or it hurts. To keep in mind though, her technique can be perfect, but if the guy doesn't know what he's doing it'll still hurt.
  4. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    As others, I dispute that, but even if you don't change the volcada sequence itself, you can still improvise using the rhythm (the most dramatic thing you can do is insert a pause right in the middle of it, with the lady's free leg fully extended towards the man).

    Not for the faint of heart, and it does suppose that the leader is very careful in offering the ideal support (and that the follower tries to push herself up so as not to strain her back). Otherwise, the follower will discover exactly how painful volcadas can be.

    Unless, of course, it's a microvolcada. Volcadas need not always be super-dramatic and take up colossal amounts of space (unless you're dancing True Neuvo?)
  5. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Very true. And despite the stereotype of volcadas being big and sweeping, and taking up a lot of space, they can just as well be done very quickly, in no more room than a simple step would take.
  6. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I guess what I meant was, once you've taken your partner off-axis, you have to bring her back on-axis first. You can't decide to just do any old move - you're committed.

    I'm mainly thinking this because it seems that most of the nuevo dancers I see seem to be less musical than most of the traditional dancers. That may be simply my impression of course.

    Me :) - but I'm not a nuevo detractor, I played Stairway to Heaven last night I'll have you know. :p
  7. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Well, yeah. But you're also committed if you take a step...unless you want to play with partial weight changes. It's the same thing.

    I think it's a matter of taste and the skill of the leader. Or perhaps local dancing scene. I don't see any difference in musicality between traditional and nuevo dancers around here. (Although, to be fair, there aren't a lot of nuevo guys). The traditional ones just shuffle around boringly (and there's a difference between simple and interesting versus boring shuffling), but they can stand on the "I'm keeping things simple" platform and no one bats an eye.

    LOL. As much as I love LZ, and I do, STH has never been a particular fave. And as much as I can hear tango in almost anything, STH doesn't lend itself to AT to my ear. Although I'd have been thrilled if someone around here would try something that fun and interesting.
  8. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    think it is possible to change within, cause I (however) use to do it very often a bit slower. So you can change the direction, the direction of the exit, change it to a rebote, or wrap, keep it suspended, stand still (sorry)

    volcada isn´t a sequence, it is a way almost every step can be performed.
  9. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    didnt you like the Leandro and Gaia video of them dancing to STH?

    how about People Are Strange?
  10. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    To me a volcada is something that takes the follower off-axis, does something with it and ends in a resolution of some kind (which may leave the follower strongly "apilado" or not). That's indeed not necessarily a sequence as in "more than one step", but it is a sequence of actions, and you can play with timing within that set of actions. Sorry for not being clear.
  11. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    You're only committed when you transfer weight. It's typically a much smaller "moment" than the commitment to a volcada. You can change your mind in a much smaller window, and much easier.

    My impression is that people doing nuevo dancing are less inclined to be musical than those who do not. But to be fair, most people don't actually dance tango anyway, in any style.

    Try the Vitamin String Quartet version.
  12. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    You can decide to just do any "old" move... like a puente, a barrida, an out of axis calesita, a back or forward ocho milonguero, an apilado walk... there is only one exception: the only thing you can't do in this position is the pivot! Isn't it funny?

    From a technical point of view, a volcada is nothing else then a forward out of axis: nothing different from apilado, just another name to call an old thing.
    There is something true in this if you define "nuevo" as "open embrace": with the open embrace, leading and following is a little more difficult (and this is especially true for the volcada, which is usually done in a very close embrace). Using patterns is a good trick to give the illusion that you can dance, so it is an easy and widespread "solution" for this problem.
  13. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    Bingo. If you dance in a close embrace and use simple steps, it's impossible to hide a lack of skills under a lot of smoke and mirrors. Doesn't mean that all dancers in an open embrace lack skills and connection with the partner.
  14. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    What is the 1/2 way point of a volcada? When you are leaning at the most off-axis point? You could always just stay there (or at any other point in the leaning) and dance in that lean for a few steps... would that be changing your mind 1/2 way through? (ie: not returning to upright as usual)

    Could you give an example of the sort of sequence you are thinking about?

    Considering that just about every class teaches a "sequence", and many don't bother to explain ways to vary it, I'm confused about where you are drawing a distinction between what gets taught as potential for variations or breakdowns vs what is practical/ possible to vary or breakdown into components.
  15. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    No.. you don't.

    As pointed out above, you can do variations on the volcada, and even take steps with her in that off axis position, although steps that lead her to step forward have the most potential to be confusing to her unless your lead is very good, and steps directly back may cause her to allow herself to come out of the lean for the step rather than maintaining her orientation to you as she changes weight (which means she'll figure it out as soon as you nearly run over her expecting her to still be off axis). Side steps have the least potential for confusion unless she is an auto-pivoter for any ochos.

    I imagine all this would be tricky to lead but I've seen it and been lead this way once or twice successfully by a very good leader. Not sure how I knew to place my foot based on maintaining the lean rather than on where my free foot would be in the "dropped" position, but it worked.

    Or maybe I screwed up and the leader just compensated. ;)
  16. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    I gotta wonder if some of the criticism against "nuevo" is really glass-half-empty rather than glass-half-full thinking. When I think of nuevo teachers, I don't think of the terrible sequence-only teachers who've wandered through town. I think of the few excellent teachers I've taken classes from who really opened up my mind to exploring new movements. For example, in a "barrida laboratory" I went to a while back with Rebecca Shulman, she opened the class by explaining/showing what a barrida was, then the rest of the class was us re-inventing every possible place we could perform a barrida (with some guidance from her). And when someone found a great combination, we'd all practice it. And when we were stumped on what to do next, Rebecca would open up another possibility by showing us another way of moving or looking at things.

    This teaching method seems to be more like the original intent of the nuevo three.
  17. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Well, the leader can use the follower's standing foot as the pivot point and walk around her maintaining the lean, but maybe that's not what you mean by "pivot".
  18. chanchan

    chanchan Member

    Yes, I call it "out of axis calesita".
    By "pivot" I mean a rotational movement of the whole body around one's own vertical axis.
  19. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    The more general term is planeo for the woman. The planeo can be done without and with forward lean, with bended knees, or even colgadized. The calesita is kind of a planeo in the carpa-position (extrem lean). Either of them is a rather passiv turn for the woman. Whereas a pivot is something activly done. I would not call a figure or sequence a pivot, because pivoting is one of the fundamental stepping techniques like crossing (Naveira meaning) forward, backward stepping and so on.

    the planeo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWTvjsMjlm4

    the rulo http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Rulo.htm

    the carpa http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Carpa.htm

    the calesita http://www.marseilletango.fr/Video Tango Calesita.htm
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    aha the carpa is the "Back breaker"

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