Tango Argentino > following or 'dancing the woman's role'?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by jfm, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. jantango

    jantango Active Member

  2. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Because I feared I haven´t got it right, location vs. style....
  3. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    My remark was a sweeping generalistion, my evaluation is that a lot of tango dancing is gutless ( maybe through fear of making mistakes); there is enough skill and variety to make it okay, but some places get a bit "precious" about it.

    Precious = 4. Affectedly dainty or overrefined: precious mannerisms/
    behaving as if something is more important or serious than it really is.
  4. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    thx understood now :-?
  5. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks for posting this. It's very much worth reading.

    For me, it confirmed what I've felt, that there are differing opinions/philosophies/styles on this stuff. My personal opinion is that the term "Salon style" encompasses all the main/tradition styles danced at various milongas in BsAs (with estilo del centre (milonguero style) and estilo del barrio (VU Style) being the two main subsets).

  6. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Partially agreed. Salón can be a style, a location, a differentiation, and a brand. It clearly resembles the milonguero question from the 90s: milonguero the dancer, the aficionado, the participant, a differentiation, and a brand.

    In the 90s the differentiation milonguero meant normal dancer instead of professional dancer of whatever style. The hijacking of milonguero as a brand for apilado/confiteria/del-centro/Almagro followed. this change in terminology wasn´t unchallenged as the interview with Cacho Dante clearly reveals. He first found it derogative and regarded himself a dancer or at least a salonero because he used to dance to young Pugliese. Think we had a thread on this interview in the vids section.

    Today salón in the first place means: neither milonguero, neo or escenario. Unfortunately only Villa Urquiza is the only salón label that remained but there where some more. Due to the monopolization of VU some start to proclaim Villa Pueyrredón as another cradle of salón style. Also Orlando Paiva danced salón (watch his elegant enrosque-lapiz-contralapiz-combinations) though he actually does not belong to the holy pillars of Villa Urquiza.

    The standardization of tango in BsAs (in the sense of VU) for me is by far the most exciting question. Only two camps remain in the competition boards: VU und escenario. No milognuero stylists take place in that patronage. And followers of Naveira/Frumboli don´t need to put up with this crazy business at all.

    Perhaps the rise of VU is due to the success abroad of so many other stylists.
  7. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Back to embellishments:

    So why do embellishments distinguish salón (f.i. VU) from milongueo style. The required floor space is diffferent. in salóns actually more of it was available than in confiterias and bars. Also the music was different (as I wrote before) but I dont take it the wrong way if you guys dont want to follow me on that score.

  8. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, salon means club (AKA nightclub). Some clubs are big and some are small. It also became the name of a style (or better, a collection of all the traditional styles danced in clubs). The only thing you really know for sure, is when someone says Salon Style, they aren't talking about Nuevo or Fantasia (Stage Tango).

    I believe it was Susanna Miller who coined the term "Milonguero Style". I think some people have mistakenly taken this to mean that she (or others) are claiming that all milongueros danced in this style. Of course, that's not true, unless you have a rather narrow definition of what a milonguero is (which some people do).

    I think a lot of people simply like the look of it (myself included).
  9. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    Salon de baile means ballroom. That's where people do ballroom dancing. Tango is a ballroom dance. (Centro Region Leonesa, Nuevo Salon La Argentina)

    Club in BsAs is a neighborhood sports or cultural club that has a salon for dancing (Club Villa Malcolm, Sunderland Club, Club Armenia).

    "Milonguero style" or "close embrace" are the terms used by Susana Miller, specifically referring to the milongueros in the city center. No two milongueros dance in the same way. Dance is personal expression, and they all have individual styles. It's characterized by improvised small steps in the embrace.

    I hope you like the feeling as well.
  10. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    No milonguero because their dance isn't designed for visual appeal
    to watchers and judges, it evolved by dancers for dancers to dance.

    Didn't you mean :

    And crazy followers of Naveira/Frumboli don´t need to put up with
    this business at all.

    There's plenty of argentines behind it though some deny such a style
    exists - it's salon they say. The Villa Urquiza style name has no history
    though the dance style itself obviously has, derived as it is from escenario's
    hackneyed depiction of milongas in shows and on the stage - oh yes,
    for audiences.

    The more it's talked about the more people will believe it is a real social
    style rather than invented for marketing classes to foreigners.
  11. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I like the looks of VU Style. I like the feeling of Milonguero Style (or whatever it's called these days).

  12. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    No! dchester, just the opposite, salóns usually are big, but clubs, cafés and confiterias (confectioneries) are rather small or crowded and therefore require that tight hold.
  13. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Look out, boy :banana:
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Your definition is more restrictive than mine. IMO, salon could mean a Hall, Ballroom, Lounge, Tea Room, etc.

    At least now, I better understand your point of view, and why some of your terms are a bit different from what I'm used to, here.
  15. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    I only refer to the historical use of that words, and of course to what I have learned from Janis.
  16. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    Didn't you read this:

    The clubs are large usually, big spaces for the local population to socialise
    - often dual purpose like Sunderland Club.

    Centro Region Leonesa has a capacity of 400 apparently but its relatively
    central location means it can be very crowded, compact dancing only.

    Nor can you make a sweeping generalisation about cafés and confiterias.
    The last one surviving in the city centre, the faded glory of Confiteria Ideal,
    is rather large upstairs where the milongas are held.

    Even a cafe which may be transformed for a show or even a milonga
    can be large as anyone knows who has been in the very period café
    in the imposing railway station at Retiro.

    It isn't the size of the space but its occupancy that influences the dance.
    Packed with dancers means small - there's not even room for anything
    outside the actual space occupied by the couple.
  17. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I tend to agree. Well, one can make sweeping generalizations, but you have to be careful in how you apply them and understand them. I think they have little use when discussing the real world.

    The minute you use one you have to include the appropriate disclaimer.
  18. jantango

    jantango Active Member


    The difference between a restaurant and a confiteria in BsAs is a latter is a restaurant that has dancing. The famous confiterias of the city in the 1950s were Sans Souci, Piccadilly, Nobel, Domino, La Cigalle, Siglo XX, Mi Club, Monte Carlo. They had small dance floors where the dancing was compact. I danced in Monte Carlo when the milonga Pavadita was organized by Alicia "La Turca" Juan.
  19. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    on the subject of styles

    I came across a page I saved from an old tango magazine in 2004 entitled, styles in few words. It followed a transcribed interview with several teachers in the different styles. I won't give a complete translation of all four styles here, but will mention two -- milonguero and salon. The other styles are canyengue and stage. The chart has categories: (1) principal characteristics, (2) advantages, (3) disadvantages, (4) origen, (5) those who dance each style, (6) opinions, and the (7) music for each style. It was compiled based on the responses of the dancers in the interview.

    1 an embrace apilado (contact with faces, arms and chest) steps lead from the embrace, figures adapted to space available, and related to the music.
    2. permits one to learn to dance relatively quickly, given tools to avoid bumping in the milonga.
    3. not as showy or elegant as other styles.
    4. in milongas with space shortage in the middle of the last century
    5. Susana Miller, Elina Roldan, Carlos Gavito, Daniel Garcia, El Tete, Ruben Harymbat. (Ana Maria Schapira named these people; Gavito is hardly in this category)
    6. It's a poorer salon dance, a little more rapid and shorter steps. They do the same to every orchestra. (Luis Grondona) It has a dynamic very short, short steps, with a very tight embrace. It began in the 60s and 70s on floors that were full and left little space to dance. (Milena Plebs) It doesn't exist per se. It's a business that certain people called it, a dance with more contact and limited steps. (Julio Balmaceda)
    7. Di Sarli, D'Agostino, Calo, D'Arienzo, Troilo, De Angelis.

    1. Walking dance in a closed embrace that doesn't get to be apilado (tight). Much attention to elegance of the movements and to follow the rhythm of the music. All happens on the floor.
    2. The emphasis is in form, in how one makes each movement. It is the style more frequently found in the milongas.
    3. They dance fewer steps than in other styles.
    4. Salons of the 40s in which they made the quality of the embrace and elegance before the new space limitations for certain steps.
    5. Miguel Balmaceda, Antonio Todaro, Pepito Avellaneda, Raul Bravo.
    6. It's a dance on the floor, as its name indicates that takes into account the possibilities of the salon. (Luis Grondona) It consists of long, graceful steps, dividing long time sequences. It puts much emphasis on form. (Milena Plebs)It covers most of the tango that is danced on the floor including milonguero, with different types of embrace. It also has a lot of fantasy always on the floor, no hooks or jumps. (Ana Maria Schapira)
    7. Di Sarli Calo, Pugliese, Troilo, D'Arienzo, and all the melodic music.

    And you all thought we had battles of words on DF. They're nothing compared to those among the teachers in BsAs that are published.
  20. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I bet.


    FWIW, I wouldn't mind reading the whole article, in case you ever get motivated to scan the whole page/article (probably into a jpg would be easy) and post it here for your friends.


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