Hearing the Clave and Slap of the Conga

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by KiwiMambo, Aug 16, 2006.

  1. alemana

    alemana New Member

    triple mambo (easily googled and fairly widely referenced in general) is the fast form of mambo frequently referred to as spawning the cha-cha-cha.
  2. africana

    africana New Member

    ok got it...

    Also, according to popular usage:
    " cha cha cha" = cuban and "Cha Cha" = ballroom
    Though both share the same source
  3. africana

    africana New Member

    here's the clip
    FANIA ALL STARS SALSA CONGA SOLO Mongo Santamaria

    whew! sends chills down my spine

    Kiwi can you hear the conga?
    hehe

    how about this one?

    I love dancing to those types of numbers :cool:
  4. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    r.r.

    Firstly, i did not say that son was all of the dances you listed, i merely gave its english translation and hypothosised. Next, Guaracha was on one of the major chains step listback in the fifties and is danced like a very fast rhumba with a v.w. cross in the basic, want proof ?-- I taught it among many others in the system .Now to cha-- their are a couple of claimants to this dance , have met one, know of the other. from my knowledge in timeframe, the guy i was introduced to in Miami in the seventies, was then in his eighties, he was introduced at a major dance comp. as the man who devised cha. the n.y. guy you are referring to also lays claim,. I do not think you or I can disapprove of either contender, so the point is moot .The other thing about triple mambo-- you have it completely backwards, triple mambo was around long before cha . ( 1956 cha ) and triple pre dates that by at least 6 yrs . I was around teaching at that time so I speak from an empirical viewpoint .And both mambo and cha take their root construction, dance wise , from Bolero. One thing for sure , the b ./room cha bears no resemblance to the style to which I was referring ( it breaks on one ) .Having been " schooled " in both forms, never shall the twain meet ( not in my teachings ) As my p.r. amigos tell me my latin looks more latino than theirs .( props to my 2 p.r. twin brothers who trained me ) I find it interesting, that these discussions throw a lot of light into a very dark corner ( the past ) and i am always interested in the " take " of others on info they have had passed down to them , from others,generationally, I just happen to be of that generation.If congresses were more about subjects like this, and less about throwing someone over your shoulder,they would serve far greater needs .p.s. --to alem-- thanks for making my point on triple, it was and is slowed down from, mambo tempos , syncop. 3 and 4 of the bar , and probably the pre cursor of cha .again , danced before cha was " invented " Forgot to address the name " guajida " , could be my spelling of what i was informed many yrs ago as guajira by latino friends in the business .
  5. KiwiMambo

    KiwiMambo New Member

    Yeah, I can feel the Conga in that one :)
    Is this available on DVD?
    I have an awesome stereo and a projector with 106 inch screen.
    You would like partner dancing to that song or just shines? It's a fast song.
  6. sweavo

    sweavo New Member

  7. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    The mini-documentary at the end was wonderful!

    Those of you who like percussion, Bobby Valentin's Vuelve A La Carcel Album contains a song "Cuidado" where Giovanni Hidlago goes percucrazy...
  8. africana

    africana New Member

    Most definitely shines!! and not the 1-2-3 5-6-7 stuff haa!
    it doesn't have to be solo though, or shined all the way, especially the beginning portion can be partnered - I can think of one or two partners that could step up :) but that's rare....
    For dvds I'd search on decarga.com, they seem to have the most obscure collections
    Any other suggestions?

    boriken - I loved that documentary too! interesting the influence of Central Africa, I don't know why it was cutoff...El Tambor

    it's also called "tumbadora"? I think that's supposed to be the "proper" name for the conga
  9. sweavo

    sweavo New Member

    SWEET as a NUT as they say round this part of the world. The timbalero is still my hero though :)
  10. alemana

    alemana New Member

    me tooooooooooooooo
  11. double_R

    double_R New Member

    I realize you hypothesized and responded to summarize there was no need to develop theories because the history is all clear cut and concise if you actually look into it. Whether you realize it or not, when you hypothesize that all latin rhythms are Son, you are including the musics (not dances) which I listed..

    That may be so as far as it's relevance to the ballroom world, but not the Guaracha that I am referring to, which aside from traditionally being interpreted in a way that has nothing to do with what you describe, is also a particular musical style which is distinguished by the lyrical content...

    First off, I did not single out any New York instructor who laid claim to devising the cha-cha-cha. Enrique Jorrin was a Cuban musician who was living in Cuba when he developed the musical style in 1950. He was inspired by the shuffling of the dancers' feet. He also noticed that dancers in Cuba were having trouble dancing overall to the syncopation of the more livelier Cuban-styled mambos (A la Perez Prado) and simplified it by slowing it down and having the vocalists sing in unison, rather than in harmony. The syncopation for cha-cha-cha can be found even earlier in recordings that featured Danzon circa the 1940s. But it wasn't until 1950, that Jorrin initiated the cha-cha-cha craze in Cuba with his composition La EngaƱadora. The Cha-Cha-Cha would eventually become "popular" in the USA circa 1955, when stateside bands began to play and record it regularly. Many from the U.S. often traveled to Havana, Cuba and visited the Tropicana cabaret and were exposed to the dance and several dancers of Puerto Rican Origin were responsible for introducing it in popular ballrooms in New York City like the RKO and the Palladium.

    Number two, the "cha-cha," as you call it, that is taught in ballroom is a derivative of the true cha-cha-cha. No one can argue that. Maybe this gentleman you speak of in Miami devised it in the fashion that ballroom dancers are accustomed to and recognize, but he did not develop this dance out of thin air and labeled it "cha" on a spur of the moment.

    So yes, I disapprove and challenge the notion that any ballroom dancer anywhere, and in any time period, would be responsible for the structural formulation of the dances that are related to "Salsa." And unlike many in the "dance" world, I can prove it to you.

    One may develop a signature technique (Eg. Eddie Torres), but what is found within that technique has its origins that stem much farther back than its emergence in a Ballroom environment...

    I think you need to separate your own personal experiences with the rest of what happens to be historically documented. You also have to realize that the perspective from which I am speaking of and claiming has nothing to do with Ballroom terminology or dance variations. You're version of RHUMBA has nothing to do with what I know to be RUMBA. Your "Cha-Cha" is a variation of what I know to be Cha-Cha-Cha. The bolero in ballroom is alien to how I know it to be traditionally expressed within the culture from whence it came. So keep that in mind when certain terms are being stated because despite the use of similiar terminology, we both may be referring to two different things...

    That's nice. But your "puertoricaness" over others doesn't give you any leeway as far as properly teaching these dances in traditional fashion and giving a detailed account of its background...

    You may happen to be from that generation, but based on your own accounts/arguments, everything you state is from a first person perspective that happens to be outside of the culture and taken from the word of people at face value because of their ethnicity or their stature in the ballroom community.

    So because an old man in the 1970s was honored at a huge ballroom event in Miami, FL and claimed he created the "Cha"... that makes it so? Because your puertorican dancer friends and Djs all claim one thing, their word is enough for you? Do you bother to approach them and ask for specifics? Like the When, Where, How and Why of it all? You taught the triple mambo when it emerged and the cha. When did those dance forms become part of the ballroom curriculum? How did they become integrated? Who introduced them to the ballroom world? Were there any ballroom competitions that existed that featured these dances? Which ones? Who won those contests? What do you know about those dancers? Who were they associated with?

    The past, which you claim is a very "dark" corner, happens to be well-documented and is available to anyone who bothers to do the work and research thoroughly...

    I agree with you here...
  12. africana

    africana New Member

    bam. i was gonna try muddling thru that post but figured you'd do a much better job :cool:
  13. Lofland

    Lofland New Member

    this software is great for learning to distinguish the different rhythms so you can recognize them in a song. You can play each one individually or in any combination, and figure out how to emphasize particular instruments in your dancing.

    http://www.salsagrooves.com/
  14. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    comm.

    Firstly- to the q of " my bol. cha. etc. - How can you possibly know how I teach and or dance same ?. my point , not made clearly, was this, -- the ballroom world ( a,la A. murray) who displayed mambo, cha etc . to the general public thru the means of a t.v. show , had engaged experts of the time and formulated movements that were consistent at basic level with its original form.I think any student of dance realises that pretty much everything we dance is an extensionof a basic concept .Because some individual comes up with an original idea , does not mean to say that they were the ones that extended that into farther dance construction ( as was done with salsa music ) no body will deny their right in the place of introduction, but development belongs to many.I dont know of anyone who would stay with purely and simply the 2 or 3 movements in any dance ( on a teaching level ) and expect to stay in business. I just happen to introduce all of my dances from a level of understanding that incorporates the original ideas. Also, to bring in the question of the validity of the era as to their take on the subject matter , is to a point, disrespectful. There is no definitive film of anyone saying -- Look here, Ive, invented this dance., everything we know , is passed on from others .My q. to you would be this--Would you have questioned the " experts " of the era, about the originality of their statements ?. I can only speak from what I was told,and had no cause to challenge the info. so, dont shoot the messenger !!!!!!!! ( p.s. the other claimant I was referring to in cha was a n.yorker who was credited by someone else who posted )

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