Discussion in 'Salsa' started by rickyT, Oct 28, 2003.
Re: STICK TO THE ISSUE
So which are you Joe?
Boriken lays it out in clear language (thanks, by the way, Boriken) that rumba and mambo are related and have similarities... and you then say that what he says supports your idea that they have "nothing" in common.
rickyT...thanks for the initial question and please except my apologies that this nonsense is getting mixed in to your thread. I hope my initial comment proved helpful and please feel free to PM me if I can ever be of assistance in any manner. —Jonathan
Re: STICK TO THE ISSUE
Your are welcome SD.
It is rather intriguing that you state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20s and 30s. Wouldn't you think the dance would have some how been introduced then along its music? But they weren't! They weren't introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market.
There was no mambo dancing nor music not even during the 50s when Cortijos band finally made their first bomba album in 1951 in Puerto Rico. It is a historical fact, not my made up 'truth'. Even bomba's style of afro influence didn't have the mambo like style, nor its dance. The only afro-rican music genre in PR during the 40s was Bomba and it was regarded as the "lower music played by slaves", hence not welcomed by the Anglo controlled economic market in PR.
A film strip from dancers at the palladium and a film from Afro-Cuban dancers dancing Rumba, will show how true 'NOTHING in Common With Rumba' mambo dancing is.
He who chooses not to see historical events can not be convienced by fact.
Me being puerto rican and loving salsa, there is nothing more that my EGO would want but to locate the origins of mambo dancing in Puerto Rico but I can't. There is just too much cuban, domincan, american, etc influence on the American Mambo dancing Style to say that ricans created it. Above all there is just too a great amount of Cuba origin motion in the dance. If el Gran Combo didn't start playing salsa until the early 1970s, how in the world can we even begin to try to take credit for the american version Mambo dancing? Yes, we ricans helped shape it, along with blacks, dominicans, italians, jews, but the dance by no means is of rican origins.
PR HISTORY # 101
It is rather intriguing that you (Joe Lanza) state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20s and 30s. Wouldn't you think the dance would have some how been introduced then along its music? But they weren't! They weren't introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in Mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market. "
Borkin, this whole statement of yours is a complete distortion of what I IN FACT DID SAY! Please reread my post?
1) "you (Joe) state that ricans introduced mambo to PR in the 40s when their mass influx to this country was in the 20' and 30's."
Borkin, I Never made that statement! Look at my post! [Personal attack has been edited as per Dance Forums guideline #4] My friend, First of all you may be a PR, but you do not know your PR history! It was after WW II that the mass immigration (not influx) to New York took place by the PR's. How do I know this? I was a student at the University of Miami in 1946 living in make shift dormitories, Army Air Force barracks on a former AAF Airport. In the evenings, we G.I. students spent our allowance drinking beer at the Airport Terminal Building. For one whole semester I personally witnessed the large overcrowded waiting room full of your ancestors some who might have been your relatives waiting for the connecting flight to NYC. Every night for months this situation took place with masses of PRs fleeing to NYC.
As for New York PR's, I went to the Stinson Aviation Academy before the war. My closest friend was Alex Diaz, an Officer in the Cuban Navy. I learned a lot about Cuba, but I never even knew there was an Island called PR because there was a dearth of PR's in NYC up until WW II.
2) I stated that I learned the PR Mambo in the summer of 1949 from Anita Arkin. Why is this inconsistent with your statement
that, "They weren't (Dance and Mambo music) introduced to the US market until the 40s when a Cuban, Perez Prado, after a stay in Mexico decided to venture with his music into the US market."
Borkin, I appreciate your dialogue, but how about Quoting me accurately, and if you agree that Perez Prado introduced the Music in the 1940; Please tell me "is the year 1949 (Arkin) fit into your parameter of "40's" ?
Black Sheep 'History can distort many facts, but 'Dates' per se are almost always uncontestable Joe Lanza 1946, AAF MB.
Re: PR HISTORY # 101
Joe, again, if I don't know my rican history then explain to me why there is load of jibaro songs from the early 20s speaking ot migration to the united states by the ricans? Also explain to me why songs from the mid 30s express how good it was to see so many rican communities in NY City all living out of the "Home Relief" and not needing to speak 'Ingli' (English)? While after the WWII there was a great amount of ricans migrating to the US, your statement is lacks to present that Ricans were already in NY City. If you didn't even know of the island of PR then, Do you think that you would have known they were already in NY City? Why do you think they wanted to go to NY City in the 40s? The 20s and 30s brought ricans little by little to NY City which amounted for a great deal of them here. The difference is the second wave came in the 40s, in shorter period hence, seemingly in bulk, never-the-less it doesn't take away the fact that NY City was already packed with ricans by then.
Joe, you, indeed mentioned that Mambo was introduced by the mass rican emigration in the 40s... My statement on the 20's and 30's was to show that they would have brought the dance then had they been dancing it.
While US public school's history books willingly skip over rican emigration prior to the 40s, the recorded histroy via jibaro songs from the 20s and the 30s account for such fact, plus a more complete book on american/rican history will yield a period known as Pioneer Migration of Ricans to the United States. Do I need Rican history, Yes, I do. By no means I know all of it. But it seems to me that I happen to be a little more informed than others. Joe, because you don't know of something it doesn't mean that it never happend.
On to your second statement...
What rican Mambo? There wasn't a rican Mambo! How is Anita going to learn a rican mambo when ricans themselves danced cuban mambo! The mambo that ricans knew and danced was CUBAN. Just because a person learns to dance from a rican it doesn't mean that the dance is rican. At the same time ricans came to this country, cubans came with them as well. You might have been told that it was rican mambo created by ricans, the statement being true is another token. Joe, the fruits of my research of Mambo dancing as well as its music have yielded me with results which all contradict your current knowledge of Mambo, do you think that it would be wise to deny what page after page, book after book of Mambo history says because Anita never asked herself where the ricans that taught her mambo got it from, passing on an uncomfired version of a mambo dancing that was never rican?
The first US tour of Perez Prado was in '49 in NY city. mambo came to existance in '38 in Cuba, so did the dance as per how Cubans dance it. He recorded a great number of mambo songs from 41 to 47 in Mexico City. Joe, there was no Mambo created in PR, there was no mambo dance created in PR. However, the cuban/rican relations were very good at the time, they interchanged musicians, music styles, even the national Flag. But the rican mambo you speak of is true Cuban Mambo, not rican mambo.
If Anita was taught by ricans then she would have taught you true mambo as per cubans dance with the little hop like action when feet come together, you'd be doing minimal combinations and would do dancing a lot more rumba movements. That is the mambo ricans danced in NY City as taught to them by Cubans during the 40s. Joe, this topic goes beyond your current knowledge. A history lesson by me isn't needed, for 1- you think I'm wrong anyways. 2- It is too detailed to explain in 300 page mambo histroy book, even more so here. I don't mean it as an attack to your knowledge, no one knows everything, or the full story. But your safest approach is to buy a Puerto Rican Music book and check to see if Mambo is even mentioned as being in the Puerto Rico in the 40s. If you find that it is, it will tell you exactly what I have told you, plus a lot more details that can clarify why Anita told you that it was a Puerto Rican dance.
Remember the US version isn't true mambo, it is a mixture of all dance types with a back and forth motion created in the US, and that includes original movments from rumba.
BTW.. Influx also means Arrival.
It is a simple matter to learn when the mass PR immigrations to NYC took place. The immigration department has this information, and if that's too much trouble ask some senior citizen from PR.
And I was an EYE Witness to this Mass Immigration. If you don't believe Me, check it out with the Immighrastion Office Washington D.C. A post card will do. They even take phone calls.
Instead displaying all your knowledge about Perez Prado, who happened to be the best known and played the (too) fastrest Mambo music in the 1950's.
Re: MY SOURCE
There is no need to ask, my father was one of them in the 40s who came to live with his uncle that had already been here since the early 30s. If by mass you mean lots in 5 years. Agreed, more ricans came to US during that time than any other. However, lots in 20 years is also a mass, and indicative of the first wave of ricans in the US, and more than enough to bring what you have mentioned as Rican Mambo, but ricna mambo was absent... I will agree that out of masses the shortest and fastest was the 40s, hence largest mass. However, also look up the immigration department on how many ricans were here before the 40s in what is known as Pioneer Mirgration, the first wave of mass mirgartion of ricans in to the US. You'll be surprise that half knowledge doesn't tell a full story.
Lets concentrate on the history of mambo and why it couldn't have been the ricans that created it the dance, hence the rumba influence mambo dancing contains because of its Cuban origin, rather than mass migration of the ricans to the US.
Sicilians came to California in the Mid 1800's, but the mass immigrations took place ion the early 1900's.
It is always that way. A few pioneers lead the way and then when the time is ripe the mass immigrations task place.
Are you conceeding my Eye witness report that the mass PR immigrations took place AFTER WWII, and NOT n the 1920's?
Black Sheep "Never make a factual statement you can't corroborate' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.
Ok, who cares?!?
This entire thread is about hip motion difference between
salsa and rumba...
Now we're getting into migration issues of the 20's, 30's,
You know BlackSheep, I've seen what you have done in the
other forums with your arguments and your unwillingness to
back down from any point of view that differs from yours.
I'm not saying that you should stay quiet, but Borinken is
making some points and clarifying his statements...but no...
That's not enough for you, now is it?
Personally, I don't care what you do outside of the Salsa Forum
but I will be extremely honest with you:
I don't care what anyone else says to me, as long as I am the
Mod for the Salsa forum, I will NOT tolerate you degrading every
single thread into an argument.
I don't care if I have all of the site mod's down my throat in
your defense, I simply will not have it.
I'm making this stance public so that if and when you continue
with this behavior, everyone will know why every single one
of your posts will be automatically deleted from the Salsa forum
regardless of its relevancy.
Is that drastic?
Am I taking away your free speech?
That's up to you and the faithful readers of these posts to decide.
Believe me, the last thing that I would want is to alienate anyone
with this, but you are taking things way out of hand.
You've done it in the Swing forums, Ballroom, and god knows
where else...but you won't do it here.
Borinken made his points, just drop it, no need to continue pushing
the issue just so that you can somehow, someway glorify yourself.
Take this post in whatever way you want, but I can tell you right now
your argumentative style, personal attacks, disrespect, complete
disregard for the term "COMMUNITY" will not be tolerated here in
the Salsa Forum any more!
I have said what I needed to say, the ball's in your court, you
decide what you want to do. But make no mistake, you will not
take the Salsa Forum and make it a place where someone is
afraid of making a comment just because it does not fit in your
pretty little box.
For everyone else, please don't take this as a way of censoring
anyone's posts...I don't even care about the arguing part, but
when someone is clarifying what they have said, and you continue
to push the issue, the there's something wrong with that.
I haven't posted in a very long time, but I do check out every single
post that goes on and at no time has anyone ever seen me
take such a drastic stance...however, in this case, I have to.
I would like to apologize to all those that have taken offense
to what I have said.
If you'd like, you can PM me, or
you can email me at my personal email
For the record: Salsarythms has my full backing. Period.
It is very, very easy for a forum such as this to degenerate into petty arguments. I can't really give my backing when I don't dance salsa, anyway, but I have enjoyed reading this category from time to time. I'd hate to see it turn ugly. I guess that is for the record, too. Let's not be too sensitive. What I see in some of the more argumentative posts is a lot of the pot calling the kettle black. Let's be friendly.
Yes, will, you can go on the record whether you're a salsa dancer or not. And for the record, the argumentative posts turn me off. Completely. Right or wrong ceases to matter as soon as name-calling, back-biting, and other ugliness starts. That's when I stop wanting to be involved.
Sorry, I guess I should have been clearer. I was stating my support for the moderator of this forum not as a salsero but as the Site Moderator.
My deepest apologies to everyone who views this argumentativeness... please know: this is not the norm for the forums and will never be accepted as such.
Maybe I should have been clearer too. I also support salsarhythms' decision not to tolerate negativity in his forum. Negativity turns me off.
Back on Track
rickyT, did the first several posts in this thread sufficiently address your concern?
Re: Hip Motion: Salsa vs Latin
Hey! You're an international rumba guy! 8)
Anyway, I definitely don't have it yet, because my standing figure 8's aren't bad, but my seated ones, well. Let's just say I'll pull the curtain of charity over them for the time being. :lol: Sad.
Thanks for the reply.
Hi SDsalsaguy and Pymalion,
Despite the many fireworks and hot air generated, I believe I managed to separate the wheat from the chaff and got the answer to to my query.
Basically, I agree with Pymalion, and will use the same hip motion as Rhumba, but with less articulation. If I can figure out the hip motion of my Salsa instructor, I might post it for discussion.
I wish to thank all members who have posted replies to my query, distractions notwithstanding. If nothing else, it made for interesting late night reading.
I'm really sorry about all the back and forth.
I'm glad you got your answer, though. Please hang in there with us.
Guys, I would like to take a second to appologize if I turned you off from the thread. I'm sorry if my actions led into pettiness of topics outside the world of dance. I'm glad though, that it made for intersting late night reading and that you got an answer.
Red Bailey & the Puerto Rican
I posted a short story for you, 'RED BAILEY & THE PUERTO RICAN', look under the thread 'Short Stores'. This is a true story that took place in Miami Beach Airport in 1946. Your dad might be familiar with this incident and appreciate reading about it.
Black Sheep 'The best stories are often in history books'.
Separate names with a comma.