holding onto woman's breast - during dance

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by aaah, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    I have to say, I am not a guy but I am sure that I would find going into shadow position with a woman a tad.....dangerous...and I have seen many a gentleman (even ones with a good deal of experience)whose hand, since it was a tad too high, had to be kept open ...using only the heel of the palm lest he end up with more than he intended....it seems like tricky business to me
     
  2. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    ahem...but if he did make the error of grasping the full cup...there would be no excusable reason to leave it there unless, as I said, the woman was such a straight line that he didn't know... or he was so a distracted newb as to not realize what he had gotten into...and neither of those should make him immune to having it brought to his attention
     
  3. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    Good idea.
     
  4. Indiana_Jay

    Indiana_Jay Active Member

    During a group tango lesson recently, we were instructed to enter a shadow position, with the leader's right hand on the follower's waist. While I'm much taller than any follower, this particular lady was shorter than average. The first time into shadow position, my right hand was too high, which I realized immediately. It wasn't exactly fun for me. Of course, I moved my hand immediately and adjusted my reach on every subsequent repetition. So, I can see how it could happen, but in my case, no observer would confuse my briefly misplaced hand with "grabbing her full breast."
     
  5. cornutt

    cornutt Well-Known Member

    You learn to find the side edge of the sternum (or just the curve of the waist) with the heel of one's hand. If you place the heel of the hand and feel bra, move down! Now, if you're dancing with a braless woman... :oops:
     
    dbk likes this.
  6. JudeMorrigan

    JudeMorrigan Well-Known Member

    My instructor actually likes me to use the bottom of the lady's bra as a guide for where my hand should be. As in, have the top of my hand right up there against it.

    The very first thing I do in my samba is to put the lady in shadow position. I recently started the dance with my am partner. It was just a couple of days ago that I pulled her aside and noted that if we danced long enough, sooner or later I would almost certainly wind up with a handful of bosom (so to speak), and that I was apologizing in advance for it, and assuring her that I wasn't trying to get away with anything. I couldn't quite decide if I was entirely pleased or ever so slightly unsettled by just how quick she was to reply with a "oh, please, I know you, I'm not even slightly worried about it.) ;-)
     
  7. caw

    caw Active Member

    My former coach who was an older french woman instructed me (man) to put my hand on my partners butt (woman) when doing a rumba cuban rock in part of our routine. I found it very awkward, but even more so when my coach wanted to demonstrate how to do something to my partner, and asked me to do the move with her...
     
  8. tsb

    tsb Well-Known Member

    while my own redeemer tendencies make me want to pull on my armor and jump on my white horse in situations like these, over time, i have come to the conviction that it falls on the person running the event to make it clear what standard of behavior is acceptable, and for them to enforce these standards. said owners should also make it clear that they wish to be informed when such violations occur.

    while it would be great if everyone could speak up for themselves, the reality is that are some who can't - or won't - do so. one might suggest that speaking up would cause the behavior to stop, the reality is that in the instances where a predator is involved, said predator will merely go in search of other prey - but the predator would not have acted out if he/she didn't sense prey to begin with.

    it's been made known that the person is from a foreign culture and that the person is also apparently uncomfortable with asserting their own personal boundaries. while it's not been made clear that the two facts are related, that is in fact often the case; it's very common for people of far eastern heritage such as my own. speaking to that, one major difference between western and eastern cultures is the focus on the individual vs. the community. this is reinforced by language; in my parents' native tongue, the term uncle translates into multiple unique phrases that specify mother's or father's side AND whether the relative is older or younger than their sibling. even the terms for mr, miss, mrs, etc, reflect whether one is older or younger than the person being addressed. the point is that everyday language reinforces not only the concept that one is always part of something bigger than themselves, but where each person stands in relation to anyone else within that community at any given moment. as such, boundaries are often blurred if not completely non-existent; behavior and actions westerners would consider intrusive are accepted as being within acceptable social norms, even if the behavior is unwanted.

    a thought i want to throw out there is that some people want to retain their cultural heritage and values, even though that choice may prompt others to try and take advantage of them. and when those behaviors and values do not impinge on anyone else, trying to influence someone to modify that behavior that is strongly influenced by their culture of origin, even when it's "for their own good" could be considered rather presumptive. one may be perceived as potential prey not because of weakness, but rather out of choice, a choice of culture which we might be trying to deny them. as such, when it's clear that something inappropriate was going on, i would consider it appropriate to approach the person in question and suggest to them that the behavior in question is likely to continue if they do not speak up. moreover, if they did try to speak up but nothing changed, it would be appropriate to complain to an event organizer and let them know what is going on. the person would then a have a choice to do as they wished. if i perceived the person to be under threat of real physical harm i might then point out what was going on to a venue organizer.

    as a venue organizer, i would listen to any and all 3rd party accounts, but i'd also take into consideration the motives of any self appointed deputy and whether they'd already spoken to the person and suggested to them that they speak up before approaching the identified victim privately to confirm the details of an account before responding. in the case of a first person account, i would then approach the offender that they someone has reported them as having violated the established standards of behavior. said offender would then have the choice of accepting a refund and leaving never to return, or modify their behavior with the understanding that a second offense would result in refusal of future patronage.

    a problem is that for some venues, it's going to be about $$$$, so their choice of action will be influenced by what is most expedient financially, which often means doing nothing.
     
    Bailamosdance likes this.
  9. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    cultural differences should certainly be respected ...but no cultural perspective should reinforce toleration of abuse....so, while one needs to respect that it may be more difficult for some than others to report things such as this, it is still exceedingly important that every woman learns to be able to do so...I also think it is difficult for an organizer of an event to issue a blanket pre-emptive "please don't grope your partner" sort of advisory
     
    danceronice likes this.
  10. Wannabee

    Wannabee Well-Known Member

    I am pretty well-endowed and I have had multiple accidental gropes over the years, mostly with newbies. They are quick to reposition and apologize, so I've just sort of learned to accept that if you are a woman with larger breasts and partner dance with people (yes, I've been groped by women before as well, specifically a girl I practice with alot as male practice partners are hard to find), you will be accidentally groped. It just happens.

    The sweetest response after one such incident actually came from my pro. I've been dancing with him for 3 years now and he has never had any such accidents before this. But we were social dancing at a competing studio's showcase, so everyone was really laid back and not at all in competition caliber mind-set, etc. And I think that probably had a lot to do with why it happened lol. But I come out of a turn in ECS and he grabbed for my hand a bit too early, and a bit higher than usual. He got a nice big handful. He turned 5 shades of red and apologized for 15 minutes. I kept insisting that it was fine and I knew it was an accident and not to give it another thought, etc. He seems pacified by my insistence that I "forgave" him. I had a regular lesson the next day and about 20 minutes into it, he stopped the lesson and started apologizing again for the mishap the night before. I told him it was a much bigger deal to him than to me and to stop apologizing. Thankfully, that twentieth apology finally convinced him he was forgiven.

    GUYS KNOW... And they know that we know they know. Then they either apologize and fix the hand position or keep it there thinking maybe we didn't notice. We did.
     
  11. twothreefourone

    twothreefourone Active Member

    I was reading this thread thinking, I'm glad that hasn't happened to me. Then it happened in practice just now whilst we were doing rumba choreo - the heel of my hand still burns in shame. Thankfully my partner is very forgiving and appreciated not being dropped over a light graze.
     
  12. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    I had a conversation about this with a female student last night. She is well endowed and has had trouble with men touching them while dancing. I've a few times had to tell her, "If you don't keep your upper body toward me, you're going to put your boob on my arm." It makes her laugh and gets her to stay in the right position, lol. Anyway, she said she was at the bar and asked the men there if they knew if they touched boob, accidentally or otherwise. They all agreed that yes, they do know when it happens.
     
  13. JudeMorrigan

    JudeMorrigan Well-Known Member

    In fairness, they wouldn't know if there were times where it happened where they didn't know that it happened. (And yes, the first rule of tautology club is still the first rule of tautology club.)
     
    llamasarefuzzy likes this.
  14. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    HA good point, but I still think they always know. :)
     
  15. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    lolz....I am beginning to feel a tad concerned...I am fairly well endowed, and no man has ever accidentally, or purposely, brushed up against my bust :)... ....that is not in any way meant to make light of women for whom this has been a distressing reality...just a bit perplexed and having a bit of fun with that
     
  16. Wannabee

    Wannabee Well-Known Member

    Well fasc, as twnkltoz said, my frequency with the issue is likely due to bad positioning on my part. So probably a good thing it hasn't happened so much to you lol. And oddly, it does seem to be happening less frequently now, whether that is because I am improving or my boobs just aren't as "user-friendly" anymore remains to be seen o_O :D
     
    Gorme likes this.
  17. llamasarefuzzy

    llamasarefuzzy Well-Known Member

    The only experience I've had with this is when I (fairly well endowed) was leading another girl (also fairly well endowed) in standard. It did make the frame up there a tad bit crowded. No accidental gropes, though :)
     
  18. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    It sure encourages you to stretch up and out. :)
     
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  19. aaah

    aaah Member

    people please there is a huge difference here --not the accidental grazing you and prob every woman experiences ... I am talking about a man who appears to like a skinny petite dancer too much, getting her in a samba position from behind snuggling real close then grabbing and holding on to her breast not for a second but for the duration! later the woman complains about it out of the blue a week later so you know she was affected and troubled by it
     
  20. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    I think we all know that, but the original question had pretty much been answered.

    Although I don't know why you're harping on the "pretty, petite, skinny" aspects of this.
     

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