Dancers Anonymous > Holistic Health Thread

Discussion in 'Dancers Anonymous' started by pygmalion, May 18, 2012.

  1. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    If you want something proven or disproved to your satisfaction, I recommend that you do your own research.

    I gave you feedback as to how your comments to me were received and a heads-up as to why I won't be replying to similar comments in future. That's all. :cool:
  2. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    It's not even about "to [my] satisfaction."

    1. I've seen assertions/implications on this thread that seem (to me) to be completely unsupportable.

    2. I've also seen repeated refusals to even try to support them. At all.

    3. I've also seen repeated statements that it's a personal affront -- not to mention an indication of my own ignorance -- that I've asked for, or challenged the support for, those assertions.

    This is all despite the fact that I've taken pains to discuss the assertions rather than people, and to steer clear of eastern/western/holistic/whatever distinctions. Indeed you may note here -- not for the first time -- my indictment of certain aspects of western research.
  3. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    Incidentally, that *also* won't hurt my feelings.

    If I see health-related assertions that I think don't hold water, I'll still point out my reasons. If someone thinks my reasons are all wet, I'll still gladly hear why that's so.
  4. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    the results of that study were that IQ scores were "significantly lower" in the high fluoride areas, and of the 12 (excluded) studies cited as supplemental material, 8 of them reported the same results. the conclusion of this particular study is that "the results support the possibility of an adverse effect of high fluoride exposure on children’s neurodevelopment."

    of course there are many questions one can ask, and should, the definition of "IQ" and how it is measured being high on my list. there isn't just one kind of cognitive function, and i wonder what aspect of intelligence was measured. there is a big difference between the apparent cleverness that may be the result of rote, authoritatively imposed learning as compared with independent and adaptive analytical thinking. i suspect it is the latter which is most affected by fluoride, but i'm not aware of a study that has targeted specifically that type of mental function.

    fluoride is used in many SSRIs, which i have heard many times can cause apathy, listlessness and dullness of mind or a sensation of "muddy thinking".

    i think it is only common sense to acknowledge that there are red flags here which should warrant caution.
  5. nikkitta

    nikkitta Well-Known Member

    fwiw, it looks like an open access article and if you click on "download PDF" in the upper right, you can see it all (32 pages, plus separate supplemental material). I'm not well-versed enough in statistics to speak to the validity of whatever tests they used.
  6. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    Aha, you're right. I hadn't seen that.
  7. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    Since it was pointed out that the full article is available after all:

    They are also careful to note that other possible explanations for test score differences (e.g. income level, parent education level) are *not* considered.

    In fact several different tests were used in the various analyses. In table 2, the effect is smaller (-0.36) if only the most common test is considered, and smaller yet (-0.29) if contamination other than from fluoride is present.

    (It's not totally clear to me whether the -0.29 result is also restricted to the most common IQ test, as well as excluding non-fluoride contamination.)

    The authors also say:

    "The estimated decrease in average IQ associated with fluoride exposure based on our analysis may seem small and may be within the measurement error of IQ testing. However, as research on other neurotoxicants has shown, a shift to the left of IQ distributions in a population will have substantial impacts, especially among those in the high and low ranges of the IQ distribution (Bellinger 2007). "

    Well, I looked up the citation; but alas the full text is not freely available.

    However the abstract is quite circumspect.

    Perhaps I need to peruse the original article more carefully, but I'm still not entirely clear on the relationship between the results and the measurement error of IQ testing.

    That's addressed in the full article. So it's possible to check the studies in the meta-analysis for one's self. (I haven't done this, but it's reassuring that it's possible.)

    The full article explains this as follows:
    1. China has problems with severe fluoride contamination.
    2. "High" in the US is considered > 1.2mg/L (Health and Human Services) or > 4mg/L (EPA)
    3. Exposure levels in the included studies can be seen in Table 1. (Side note: it's annoying that the "results" column in Table 1 don't include the data from Figure 2.)

    I looked up my local tap water report. Measured fluoride levels were in the range [0.75, 1.15] ppm (ppm is roughly the same as mg/L for pure water at standard temperature and pressure).

    I think that's still true, although the level acceptable to the EPA does seem high; and I was interested to note that HHS apparently proposes to lower it's fluoride level recommendation to 0.7mg/L, strictly.

    I would easily believe that ingesting large quantities of fluoride could have various bad consequences. However I (personally) don't see cause to be alarmed by the levels present in my own tap water.
  8. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Here's the first post of this thread. This is the intent -- to exchange ideas about how to get and/or stay healthy without medical intervention.

    Really and truly, technical analysis of scholarly articles is not the goal, here, for (what I perceive to be) the vast majority of people who participate in this thread. The endless circles of "prove it to me" are quite tiresome, especially when one considers that (based on conversations in a few threads I can remember) DF is disproportionately populated with scientists, engineers, and academics. DF members can largely read technical material and draw their own conclusions, IMO. Those of us who can't analyze data usually know how to ask for help or clarification, also IMO.

    And back to the intended purpose of the thread.

    Yes. I found fluoride-free toothpaste at Tom's of Maine. Ouchie. Way more expensive than Crest, but definitely worth it, IMO. How much toothpaste does one use anyway?

    And a (most likely controversial) question.

    What's wrong with canola oil? All I know is that it's made from rapeseed and that every natural foodie person I know thinks it's spawn of the devil. I just don't know why. I've googled, of course, and the online postings I've seen are so vitriolic, in some cases, that I can't take them seriously. What gives with the hatred of canola? Is it the GMO connection? Is it poison? (Something else I've heard.) What gives?

    Also, where does one find organic vegetable oils?
  9. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    I guess I should add, does organic veggie oil matter? Can one just go to the supermarket and buy extra virgin olive oil? Where is olive oil grown, harvested and extracted? Is it non-GMO by definition, kinda the way that corn oil in the US is almost guaranteed to be GMO?

    No idea. If anybody has info, please share.
  10. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    I think that it is fair for members to note, when there is a possible downside to taking a holistic approach....example, I know lots of folks who came from countries without flouride in the water who have dreadful teeth, and I can tell you that 9 months of it for my son who had perfect teeth when he left for Africa(his dentist had to sign off on that), amounted in 4 root canals and two crowns from just 9 months without it(again, with other factors also influenced that..which will be minimized or maximized depending upon the leanings of each person reading this....but it was his truth)....I think it is fair to note that evidence provided may or may not be fully sound and that there can be consequences both positive or negative to any health choice....those are important considerations.... it bears merit to mention the potential consequences of various holistic choices as well...just as you might caution an aspiring vegetarian to make sure they get enough B12 or you would mention the consequences possible in not vaccinating along with the dangers of vaccinating...

    As regards not filling the thread with pages of debate, I think that mutually respectful responses and resisting temptations to engage in further rounds if one finds it futile or annoying is always a wise option...
  11. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    I totally agree, fasc.

    DFers can and should post whatever they want (within DF guidelines.) And the DFers reading their posts have the right to read, ignore, or respond as they choose, as long as they stay within DF guidelines.

    And, as I have been reminded countless times, the intent of the OP counts, when it comes to the direction of a thread. :cool:
  12. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    sure....the intent is very important...and arguing for the sake of arguing takes the thread off topic....offering considerations for caution and then moving on would be appropriate....the staff will certainly endeavor to help bring attention to when a thread has adopted the first scenario rather than the second....hopefully, now that those concerns have been expressed, your new questions can be picked up and responded to by persons who have some insight in that regard
  13. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    Snopes did a piece on this:

    It includes a mention that traditional cross-breeding was used, not (laboratory genetic modification.
  14. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    i agree with both your & fasc's comments on the subject.

    toothpaste is one of our assumed cultural norms. who decided this was the optimal way to care for our teeth, anyhow? there are (unfluoridated) indigenous peoples around the world who have beautiful teeth and who never used the stuff.

    while i have deep sympathy for fasc's son, there are other reasons he may have come back from africa with his dental challenges.

    anyway, i no longer use toothpaste. have been experimenting with a variety of other brushing agents for the last couple years, which i find leave my teeth & mouth feeling cleaner than toothpastes ever did. and in my personal assessment, they are also alkalizing, mineralizing, and invigorating.
  15. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Yep. Cultural norms can be quite powerful, can't they?

    Reminds me of the first time I went to West Africa and was baffled when I realized that the people there do not drink milk at all. Period. I couldn't imagine generations of little kids growing up without calcium to help build strong bones and teeth. As it turns out, people there eats greens -- lots of them, the dark, leafy kind that are full of calcium. And pregnant women chew some stone-looking thing (I don't know the name in English) that's pretty close to 100% minerals, with most of it calcium.

    My prejudices about what people "should" do were based on the culture in which I was raised. Maybe people DO need calcium. That doesn't necessarily mean they need cow's milk. Hmm.

    I'll look into alternative tooth-cleaning methods. In the meanwhile, I'll check into Tom's. I'm pretty sure Sprouts (a farmer's market and health food store in the West and Southwest) has it.
  16. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    i think this subject, like a lot of those that come up in this thread, touches upon things that are controversial because they challenge a lot of the assumptions we have, and many of those assumptions have been powerfully guided by corporate and other, well-funded interests. the "healthfulness" of unsaturated fats is a great example. corn, soy and canola oils are huge cash crops, and people have been aggressively sold the notion that they are the healthiest oils. my research, experience and observations suggest otherwise, and there are credible leaders in the health & medical fields that would agree.

    i prefer saturated fats, which are more stable and do not oxidize as readily as unsaturated fats, which leave a sticky "plaque" behind when they oxidize (think, "your arteries"). i remember growing up and my parents' vegetable oil bottles always developed that stickiness around them and i wondered what it was caused by -- now i know.

    the cold-pressed olive and coconut oils and grass-fed butter i use never do that. they are more stable fats and do not oxidize so quickly. and, to be simplistic about it for a moment, they feel good & natural in my body. if only people would start to pay more attention to that basic common sense and be less intimidated by the complexity of the pseudoscientific ramblings those that benefit very keenly by sales of the unsaturateds...

    as for canola...i understand that it was a hybridized genetic modification as opposed to a "GMO" that inserts genes of another species/chemical/bacteria etc. into the genetic structure. however, it is a supremely denatured creation... rapeseed was simply not designed by nature for human consumption, at least at the level it is now being consumed. it was modified for sales & money, and marketed as "healthy" to generate same.

    buyer...eater... beware, IMV.
  17. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    and yes, P, you can buy quality oils at the grocery store these days. look for cold-pressed. if you add organic to the list of criteria, hope your pockets are deep.

    for butter...grass-fed cows. clarify the butter to remove the milk solids & make "ghee", if you like. it doesn't need to be refrigerated and it's a stable, highly desirable fat, in my book.
  18. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    again, our common assumption is that "milk makes a body strong". that was a marketed (and profitable) concept.

    to strengthen bones & teeth, milk is nowhere on my list of valuable foods for that.
  19. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Wow. That is so powerful!

    I could say more and probably will, after I get back from running a billion errands. What I can say briefly is that, during my cleanse this summer, I have started paying closer attention to how I feel, after I eat whatever I eat. I can tell in very short order whether what I just ate is good for me or not. My body tells me. Bottom line is I just haven't been listening, all these years. I know I may sound crazy, but it's true. Good food makes me feel good. Yucky food makes me feel yucky. Almost immediately.

    Off to store to look for expeller-pressed olive oil. :cool:
  20. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    there ya go. enjoy.

    if you have never tried good coconut oil, though, be sure to give that a try. it's wonderful. and you can use on your skin, face, hair...everything. :)

    it's also known as a thyroid stimulant. which, having said that, i'm quite sure DL will be all over it. :tongue:

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