How common is bachata?

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by rails, Feb 16, 2004.

  1. cierre boca y baile

    cierre boca y baile New Member

    I love this video...I sometimes lead the whole routine, sometimes
    break it up. The "in place 4 count hip lift" gets lots of comments :D

    Can someone please tell me the song playing? I have yet to find it or hear it outside of this clip.

    My only comment on the other clip...there is way to much space between the leader and follower :lol:
     
  2. Salsaonone

    Salsaonone New Member

    Re: sensuality of bachata

    Well, actually, I have not crossed that bridge yet, but now I will!! :lol: :lol:

    In fact, what works really well in bachata are some moves I learned originally in Rhythm two step (aka arizona two step) which is country. Finally sometime useful to me came out of that genre.. :wink:
     
  3. Salsaonone

    Salsaonone New Member

    First, very few can venture down any road that is not shown to them by someone who has already been down that road. That is what teaching is all about...Showing them what road they can take, but the teacher does not take that road for them (the student), the student goes down that road, and perhaps will some help starts to travel down that road on his/her road in his/her own unique way. At first, the student is awed by the road and can only see glimpses of the road right beneath their very feet, and some decide to turn back and take a different road. Others venture further...everyone to a different degree, but without a teacher to show the possibilities, the student cannot find their own steps down the road..once confident, the student lets go of the teachers hand and starts exploring on their own....creating their own path....but any student or teacher who thinks they did it all by themselves is lying to everyone including themselves...so find comfort in conformity until you are ready to find your own path down the same road, and most teachers are still learning at some level as well...and most are happy to give their own opinion of advice if you ever want to ask...Normally, after you start out, you will find things you like and find other teachers who can take you closer to you goals than your previous teachers, and you segway to that path....when you stop learning, you stop living.
     
  4. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    That is my point, if very few can, it means that everyone can, but our negative thinking limits us. Why is that? What separates them? That is what I mean by teaching, not showing the why and how, but teaching others how to find their own why and how with limited knowledge.

    Had a teacher’s job been to show what road to take there would be no difference in opinion, or knowledge, or new discoveries, nor the fruit of new philosophical ideas, as we couldn’t possibly learn above that which we aren’t taught. We would simply be speaking and doing variations of that which is already present, not really anything new, hence, impossible to create our own path. How can a student create his or her own path when the teacher has taught what path to take? Teaching what road to take is as bad as taking the road for them. For what the teacher needs to do is give them the tools to build their own road. For using what the teacher shows the student will never be more than the sum of taught knowledge, in other words, a follower. To create a new path the student can’t follow the world of taught possibilities, rather create new roads and come back to the teacher with yet another possibility the teacher never knew existed. Note that by learning the bible I will never fathom the reality of Buddhism, how is that relevant? I want for a person to become more that what he has been taught, for I can’t look to the bible to prove the bible and live more than what the bible teaches. The point is that it isn’t what we are taught but how we can become more than what we are taught. How can I learn to teach and not teach a student to follow? How can I learn more Salsa from only been taught the basic, the self is the answer, not Frankie Martinez, but me!

    Conformity will never teach anything but conformity, seeking for answers down the same path can only yield already conceived answers, it will teach nothing about the person except that which has already been laid for the person to learn. How would a Buddhist know that he likes Christianity if all the roads he takes lead to Buddhism? How can an instructor teach me to be me when all he has taught is how to dance like him? How will a budhist ever learn of Christianity if all the teachings yield but Buddhism? This is where your argument seemingly leads; to find that which we already know. Do not allow society to throw clues as to where to go, instead seek for those clues outside of what is taught. Learn advance patterns your teacher doesn’t know just by looking within.

    I do not disagree with your views, I find them necessary for many, and in fact a reality that states to get to “B” I must pass through “A”, yet that is far from my point… I don’t care about getting to “B”, but rather what I’ve learned about me, and my relation between “A” and “B”. There is no answer to that, there is no teaching in action for it, there are just ideals learned, not taught but learned, which are meant to break everything we know to enable the creation of our own path between “A” and “B”. Your point is well taken SalsaOnOne; It just see too linear.

    My dance instructor used to say, I’m not here to teach how to dance, I’m not hear to teach you steps, all my teaching won’t do a thing if you can’t be yourself, for you’ll be nothing more than me. All I’ll ever do is make you realize that you don’t need me. For here I understood that she wasn’t referring to the teaching of steps, but a philosophy to become myself on the dance floor.

    Philosophy over steps, she taught me that a step well thrown isn’t one with perfect technique but rather one that goes beyond technique, beyond what technique? To where? Well, that is where she hopes I can figure out, for my failure to be myself and find my own answer will represent her failure as a teacher, even when she has given me every tool to succeed, for she failed to teach me that my learning is nothing if I can’t break her rules and be me. So, if she seems me dancing and sees herself in me, she’ll know she has miserably failed! For she’ll know that I never learned anything but how to follow her eloquence on the dance floor, yet saw my results in a great dancer as being my own self, when all I’ve become is her, and thought to myself to be living my own path. I learned how to get from “A” to “B” and beyond in my, thought to be own way, but found nothing between “A” and “B” that made me;ME.

    What I deem own path hasn't to do with what we are taught, but where we can go that we aren't supposed to because of lack of knowledge; GROWTH without ever been taught... The worth of knowledge is to use it to become more, not spew it out like a library.
     
  5. Salsaonone

    Salsaonone New Member

    I would venture that Great masters, unique in their fields, begin by studying the masters of thier past, and then putting their own stamp on things. How do you learn Iambic Pentamter (for example) if it is never shown to you? A positive attidude, or at least a non-negative attitude, I agree, is essential to any growth in anything.

    I think you are underestimating the creativity of the human mind. New ideas come from seeing older ideas and seeing a better way, but those old ideas have to be looked at to spark the mind into seeing better possibilities. How does someone improve something in a field they have never experienced? How do they know it even exists? "I wish I had a fork that did x,y, and z" perhaps x,y,z didnt exist before, but the fork did. If someone looks at a bible for knowledge, perhaps they will also see that there are other forms of religion and other books to read. Still, someone might say one day "the bible says this, I wonder what the Koran says about it"...and then they look. Curiosity killed more than the cat....but it is up to the individual to decide if they want to look for more or not...are you going to force people to look outside the box? I think the more solid foundation the person has in something, the better it is to leap off of it. In salsa dancing, trying new moves that I think of and not part of a teacher's step list (something small even), comes only after feeling comfortable with my basic steps and all the practice to make me feel ok with it...if you isolated someone in a room, with no knowledge of salsa dance, do you think they would spontaneously start salsa dancing? Or would it take someone who already was shown a few steps to do that? (I do it all the time, isolated or not..hehe). Anyway, I think you need instruction and a certain level of accomplishment before your mind allows you to think about other things. Which could be amazing, but only after learning the comformity of the field.

    Well I respectfully disagreed above on the conformity thing, but how would a buddhist know anything about christianity or visa versa? They have to have internal motivation to seek those views. But then you are just jumping from one conformity to another. I truely believe that there is no way a beginner salsa dancer, engineer, rocket scientist, teacher, farmer, whatever, can be innovative and original without learning the comformity of that field first. Then once that is learned, they can go off and do their own thing if they get inspiration to do so.
    Linear? Well I am a math instructor. :) :)
    Not to sound too repetitive, repetitive, repetive, etc....in order to break away from conformity, you must study it first, use it, make it yours, and then jump off to whatever non-linear tangent your mind can fathom.

    I'm sure your dance instructor wants you to be original and yourself and not her, but does she really expect that from beginners? You need technique and steps and whatnot and alot of practice before you jump out on your own...There are always genius learners of one field or another, but they learn from the past...and yes, finding things on your own and being original are not the same...but I think all in all, people should dance to have fun and enjoy themselves way above and beyond how they learned how to dance.
     
  6. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    I do not disagree that teaching is needed, my issue with learning is that we don't teach how to use knowledge but rather spew it, creating followers... Many have theory, even less can apply it.

    It wasn’t their studies that got them there, but rather the person's ability to use the relatively little they knew to discover the "impossible". For if the teachings of a master was what made those people great, then everyone who studied under the same master would have been great, and that isn’t the case.

    Had Galileo followed his “master’s” teachings he would have never came up with the heliocentric version of the universe as he was taught that it was egocentric. How could he have built “his own stamp” of the heliocentric model when he was taught egocentric? Galileo broke out of what he was taught, used his understanding of thought and the breaking of the very rules he was taught and surpassed his knowledge… that is what I allude to in too many words. There is no choice but to build from what already is, it is the normal progression of nature, however, not everyone builds more than what they know. Why? The answer isn’t found in teachings, but the self.

    Had I been underestimating the human mind, I wouldn’t think we could all be more than we are.

    Look a bit deeper into those very words and see what I mean, it isn’t that someone uses ideas to discover something, but what causes the person to make that discovery? What caused the spark? It sure wasn’t the fork, but the person’s ability to see past the fork… That is what I see as true knowledge, not the cumulative process of what is taught to the person, but the person’s ability to see past it. I could careless who discovered what, what I’m truly interested in is the knowledge that a person is able to put together from what is present and discover something that wasn’t. As it is obvious that it wasn’t knowledge that did it but the person’s ability to see past it! Otherwise, all of us that are taught from the finest of masters would all come up with unique discoveries, yet we don’t, even worse, why didn't the master if he, himself had the knowledge to. why? Just like not everyone that learns from Frankie dances as great as he does. Why? That is the knowledge I speak of, one of the mind, not one of teaching, but the mind, the ability of the mind to see past what its taught. For, if I was to follow the logic your argument presents, it would mean that everyone that has the same knowledge is to create greatness, yet it doesn’t happen that way. For, that very knowledge limits us.

    Sadly the individual is only responsible for looking further up to a conscious level, it is a societal responsibility to create a mass consciousness that enables that search. For example, if it was up to the individual to look further, then a society that is Christian wouldn’t delve into more Christianity looking for answers, but they do, in fact they disclaim everything outside it as a hoax. Society unconsciously teaches ethos used to think, if we don’t know the basis of those ethos, there is no way in the world a person can break out of that rationale, unless they can see past what they know, that is knowledge to me. Not what the teacher taught me, but how I molded what I knew, broke into piceses and came back with, as you mentioned, the idea that not only there has to be more religions, even further know, that all religions have their own valid God no less in equality and power as the one I have. For we all know that even when a religion acknowledges other Gods, the "all might" is their own God; that is conformity. Had conformity helped the individual, he wouldn’t say there is only one god, but many just as valid as his. Yet, it is a human fact that a person who doesn’t have the ability to break out of conformity/current knowledge will never be more than a conformist and seek for answers within all that he has been taught never really achieving anything but that which already is.

    I do not argue against instruction, what I argue against is using that instruction to allow the self to be all it can be, for the very essence of using all we know, to be all we can be, is a limit, and the sings of a follower. We must use all we have to be more than what society deems us to be. Kind of like having million dollars, you will never have more if you don’t invest it, but if you do, then you have created more than what you had. But if I keep saving my million in a box they’ll never be more than a million, that is what conformity does, In an analogy, you assets progress to a million dollars (knowledge) in a box(conformity), where as it should be seen as an investment of that million to generate more, and that investment has to break out of conformity/box, for if it doesn’t it will always stay in the box. Conformity isn’t what leads a person to more, but rather that spark that hasn’t the slightest to do with taught knowledge. Note that conformity isn't so unless it is lived, I can learn buddhism and not lead it, hence never being a conformist of that religion, therefore, how can I break out of buddhism if I've never been in it? Conformity has to be lead before it can be attriuted as a lifestyle or train of thought.

    Note that I’m not looking at conformity as knowledge to live within it, as a framer to farm or ability to do so, but the absence of what a person isn't (conformist) and the framer that learns the same as others yet creates a plow to help him farm. Others conformed by taught standards, one didn’t steped out of the box. The stepping out and the idea to do so, regardless of where it comes from is true knowledge, out of knowledge that said this is all you can possibly know, something more came from it. knowledge...

    we can’t break out of conformity by studying it, unless we aren’t living it, if I study math and use that conformity I will never be more than a mathematician, the jump and what is learned from the jump is what I deem knowledge, and refer to. The ability to break off it and what causes it, how we grabbed conformity and broke it, now creating a different reality. my emphasis is not stored knowledge but the ability to think past it, as well as with limits off... basically solving a calculus question when all you've been taught is to add, merely by using math as building blocks to knoweldge, rather than the limit as to why it can't be solved.

    I do not disagree with you by any means, but I don’t speak of technique, nor steps but the mind. The underlying philosophical ideas of creating the step, that is what causes us to look different, not what we are taught, but how we use what we are taught to create our person. And that is exactly what she expects, not to see a dancer print back to her, taught skills, but the philosophy applied to those steps that creates the dancer. So, yes she expects it from every beginner, for neither she or I are speak of steps, or accumulation of knoweldge/skill, but the use of it to be more than you are...

    Did that sound like bachata or what??? 1,2,3 hip... what's that groups name? Aventura, yeap, there was aventura all over this post. :D
     
  7. Lockstep

    Lockstep New Member

    wow. let me wait with rereading this post until im fully awake tomorrow again and can appreciate it in all its magnificence
     
  8. peachexploration

    peachexploration New Member

    :lol: :lol:
     
  9. Salsaonone

    Salsaonone New Member

    Bachata (oh yeah)

    Well, this is page 7 or 8...so I think (IMHO) its ok :lol: ...I usually tend to shy away from discussions this long already...hehe.....

    So here is a quick(in relative terms) reply:

    A person who can do what you ask is the exception and not the rule (probably why you are upset about it) and it has minimally to do with conformity and more with something in the brain called Genius. How many true masters are there, or have there been? what ratio is it to them vs the rest of human population. Who invented the wheel?? Who created, on purpose, the first fire pit? Who made the first alcoholic beverage?? Very few people on the list compared to everyone who ever lived. They are the exception, not the rule, and I think the reason go way beyond conformity, or perhaps way below, on a level of simple (which is complex actually) brain activity. You can't blame people for being who they are, if that is who they are...know what I mean? But, being able to create new fields or discover something is not a measure of self worth or goodness or badness, it is almost a chaotic chance that you as an individual are able to see something that no one before you has. Most are not motivated to look, and even those who are does not mean that they will find something. There is a story about Johan (sp?) Gauss (famous mathematician) who was a true genius and created alot of math stuff that we still use today..anyway, the story goes that he would go to parties and only speak to people who were as smart as he was...of course, NO one was as smart as he was, so he never spoke to anyone...I feel sorry for him...1,2,3,tap hip...1,2,3 tap hip... :wink:
     
  10. Papichulo

    Papichulo New Member

    Re: Hmm


    The most popular artist now is Aventura, but there's a lot more like Frank Reyes, Anthony Santos, and Monchy y Alexandra (even more popular) also Los Toros Band play some bachatas. Alex Bueno is also good too. I' recommend Aventura "Love & Hate" Album its nice :)
     
  11. peachexploration

    peachexploration New Member

    Hi Papichulo! Welcome to Dance Forums. Happy to have you here! :)
     
  12. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    Re: Bachata (oh yeah)

    Indeed, I'll never argue those points, nor blame people for who they are, for that isn't of my concern, nor the objective of my previous posts, rather the teaching of a philosophy that encourages the "genius" from each member of the norm. Instead of stating that a person can't, because her or she isn't or hasn't the knowledge of, for if one individual is able, all are surely capable to be geniuses their own way without ever creating anything new, just simply seeing what is there but not seen... We are simply using knowledge to bottle it…

    Which means the mass is the norm because it isn't equipped by society to be the exception, where as new ideas can turn the exception into the norm, and my entire point on knowledge, to be more than we are told to be... Have the exception become the norm, don’t use a lack of knowledge as a limit to what can be done... We can all be Gauss! There need be no new creation to be deemed important but rather the knowledge of the self and what we are, all geniuses!

    Society, nor a person's inability to see past their noses will ever lead me to think that they can't become geniuses... for I know we all can dance like no body is watching, well, except for bachata, oops, did I say that out loud?

    Thank you for fancying my wondering mind SalsaOnOne, it is always of out most joy to share perspectives on the world. If you ever have more perspective, and noone to listen you are more than welcome to contact me. :D
     
  13. Salsaonone

    Salsaonone New Member

    Re: Hmm


    I am always eager to learn new bachata moves...any clips with moves are always welcome...or a really good descriptin....BTW: I was told that the origins of bachata come from Cumbia, which originally comes from Columbia(not Mexico, although they have embraced it so much it is almost as if they did originate Cumbia)....Honestly, it is far less concern who originated it, but how to dance it and learn new moves... :wink:
     
  14. Salsaonone

    Salsaonone New Member

    Re: Bachata (oh yeah)

    I agree that attitude plays an important role in life, and so does support from the people around you. However, having a positive attitude and having people love you for who you are, does not mean that genius will occur. It may or may not be a pre-requisite to allow your inner mind to flourish, I don't know...Did every genius have a loving family and always thought "Yes, I can"?? I could not tell you. I still think that even in that enviornment, something internal has to happen, that still only happens to the very few, not the masses, even if we all loved each other on some level or another and always gave positive feeback (not lying, but always with good contstructive, not destructive criticism). Otherwise, everyone could be bach, Einstein, Newton, George Washington Carver all combined. Nice thought, but I don't think realistic.

    I can't blame society for all my problems...maybe some, but at some point, the individual has to rise above the masses and take responsibillity for who/what they are. Yet, even rising above the masses to take responsibility does not make a genius. We cannot, unfortunately all be a Gauss. I don't really want to be him anyway...but even as unique individuals, you cannot assume that genuis come out of that. Independence, ok, Control of one's own life...ok...Genius? hmm...doesn't happen all by itself if left alone with control from the masses.

    I dont mean to sound like a pessimist, but (hehe)....when we dance alone, and let it all out, does not mean that we acheive the level of genius. If I solo dance to hip hop, my "white man's disease" is quite evident...I also have bad knees so I cant do the floor work, and even then, Im not really into hip hop music....If I let society and the masses go, I am still limited by myself..even with positive thinking and support of loved ones...I am limited to myself..If I discover something new, it was not outside my limit, just my perception of my limit..and that is another discussion for another day... :wink:
    Thanks, I just figure, we are all wrong, although we always think that we are right...otherwise, we would change our opinion.... :p
     
  15. Qbanmami313

    Qbanmami313 New Member

    Hola Mi gente! I'm new to the group and the first thing I saw when I stumbled to this site was bachata. I'm Cubana so salsa is in my blood. I dance like I breath with everything I have but bachata is my baby! I know that most people are under the impression that bachata is from the Dominican Republic but actually it was adopted by Dominicans from Cuba. It's origin is from the cuban bolero not to be mistaken with the Spanish bolero and it also has influences of cuban son. However, it is not from Mexico or Colombia as stated in previous posts.... Check out a great sight called "PlanetSoul.com" It has wonderful information on the origins of salsa, rumba, y etc.[ Hopefully, I'll be getting to know severybody real soon..Ciao! :D color=darkblue][/color]
     
  16. squirrel

    squirrel New Member

    Welcome to DF Qbanmami313!
     
  17. Sagitta

    Sagitta Well-Known Member

    Hope so too! welcome to df. :D
     
  18. jhb

    jhb New Member

    It's true! Few know bachata's roots as a Cuban clave-based dance.

    But it is from the Dominican Republic! They took an existing dance (the bolero) and evolved it. It's a Dominican dance with Cuban roots. To say it is not Dominican is like saying Son is not Cuban, because its roots lie in the music of Europe and Africa.
     
  19. djpatricio

    djpatricio New Member

    Well, no great thoughts on philosophical matters, hermaneutics, or the essence of human creativity....

    Just wanted to share with you what is my favorite Bachata Of The Month:

    Castigo Eterno by Alma Encendia.

    Dang fine bachata, probably my favorite minor-key bachata right now. Request it from a DJ near you!
     
  20. msjanemas

    msjanemas New Member

    Well true the Bachata has it's origins in the bolero. In fact it is Bolero in the Felipe Rodriguez FORMAT, except "La Voz" meaning "The Voice" never had the annoying guitar pattern. The difference between Bolero and Bachata is that annoying cling cling cling cling cling that is so pronounced through out the bolero. Just a Dominican way of doing it, but to say it is Cuban is not true. Much of the Bachatas played (the great ones you don't hear on the radio) are infact a mix of Bachata and Son which is known as Bachason. That is nothing new, since Son has been around DR for ages. Now I didn't say the Cuban Son, I said SON. :?: Let's look at El Son from Cervantes mouth starting from the year 1597:

    As you can see the term SON has been in use in reference to song...meaning the Son "song/hymn/lament" has been around for ages and not centralized in one particular location.
     

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