how to do enrosque ( for a man)

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by aaah, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    the subject is Enrosques; please post about them or shut up.
  2. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    ahem....I concur, though I wouldn't phrase it quite that way
  3. JohnEm

    JohnEm Member

    Hi! And thanks for a civil reply.

    Very true, they use tango for commercial ends.
    The Buenos Aires Mundial is the most obvious example.

    Interesting sociological point is that time has also stood still for the music.
    Just like swing dance music, tango dance music is of the 30s and 40s.

    Not sure I would consider myself to have romantic eyes!
    Oh, and the places are not so hidden, they are advertised in countless
    free publications easily available in Buenos Aires and some on line.

    It's a moot point. Argentines never say Argentine Tango, just tango.
    We say Argentine Tango and blanket apply it to a perceived tango style
    and form, no matter what the music. Argentines also only say it's tango
    if it's to tango music, then almost any dancing style is tango as long as
    the music is Tango.

    If it's Vals music, it's Vals (not Tango Vals), Milonga similarly. At Lo de Celia
    they dance in the embrace also to Cumbia, Jazz and Paso Doble. We might
    still call that tango, as a teacher did who I danced with here to jive/rock
    music, but to those Argentines it's simply dancing, it's the way they dance.

    So if you claim to tango when you're dancing tango music I for one
    have no argument with you. Contrary to popular opinion on here my
    wish is for sociable dancing appropriate to the floor conditions and in
    co-operation with other dancers. I merely give close embrace dancing
    as an alternative to what is taught here as a better example for social
    dancing, especially in crowded conditions. If someone can come up with
    something else that coexists happily I would have no problem with that.

    We aren't going to agree on this because I have seen it and been
    on the floor with them - I can give examples from BsAs too.
    Buenos Aires isn't perfect and the commercial imperative is strong.

    This is a question of perspective and experience and ours are different.

    Yes there are conditions where Chicho's social dancing may well be Ok,
    after all he has admitted that along the way their Nuevo style lost the
    essence of tango. I give him a lot of credit for that and perhaps he is
    rediscovering the feeling of tango socially. His teaching and performances
    don't seem to have changed though.
  4. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Thanks for answering considerately when I once was riling golden age tango was low point in tango history.. ;)
    Yes, a really interesting point! Think in no other city, old tango music is as abundant and attending as in Bs.As., and the most important fact is, also among non-tango dancers! Berlin (think you have been there) may have got more tango dancers (not to mention tango teachers) but actually a negligible number of tango listeners.

    Very true! But only counts for the porteños in BsAs. As soon they live over here they are as die-harded as could be.

    Think you do not live on tango, nor do I. So it is quite easy for us. But all teachers I know are under extreme pressure to bind the students to their studio. There are two strategies: offering fancy moves, as well as the inflation of class designations. tango doesn´t currently work well.
  5. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Thanks for answering considerately when I once was riling golden age tango was low point in tango history.. ;)
    Yes, a really interesting point! Think in no other city, old tango music is as abundant and attending as in Bs.As., and the most important fact is, also among non-tango dancers! Berlin (think you have been there) may have got more tango dancers (not to mention tango teachers) but actually a negligible number of tango listeners.

    Very true! But only counts for the porteños in BsAs. As soon they live over here they are as die-harded as could be.

    Think you do not live on tango, nor do I. So it is quite easy for us. But all teachers I know are under extreme pressure to bind the students to their studio. There are two strategies: offering fancy moves, as well as the inflation of class designations. tango doesn´t currently work well.
  6. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Thanks for answering considerately when I once was riling golden age tango was low point in tango history.. ;)
    Yes, a really interesting point! Think in no other city, old tango music is as abundant and attending as in Bs.As., and the most important fact is, also among non-tango dancers! Berlin (think you have been there) may have got more tango dancers (not to mention tango teachers) but actually a negligible number of tango listeners.

    Very true! But only counts for the porteños in BsAs. As soon they live over here they are as die-harded as could be.

    Think you do not live on tango, nor do I. So it is quite easy for us. But all teachers I know are under extreme pressure to bind the students to their studio. There are two strategies: offering fancy moves, as well as the inflation of class designations. tango doesn´t currently work well.
  7. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    I already posted that earlier, but no one around cared...
  8. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    That's funny. There's now a distinction between social dance and social social dance.:D
    opendoor likes this.
  9. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    apologies...though I don't know if we are back on topic, yet.

    My tango spy in BsAs has told me that enrosques are a common way of leading a giro in the milongas there....
  10. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    ... but is she at the right milonga, or the wrong one. If it's the wrong one, it doesn't count. Heck, apparently tango doesn't even cross town before it is hopelessly corrupted by commercial pressures. The best musicians were from Montevideo anyway, and social tango, as it danced today, came to BsAs from Paris - heck, everyone knows that.
  11. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    OK, I'll give a serious reply to this post. While this may come across as an attack to a few people, that honestly is not my intent (well at least not for this post, anyways).
    :)

    I think the issue is that some people seem to come across as if they were appointed to be an authority on what is tango (be it social or other), and what it is not (as if they are on some world-wide committee that decided these things). They seem to think that by constantly saying "this is not what tango is, or this is the only way to do [whatever]", they are adding to the debate and enjoyment of others, when in fact that by continually repeating the same tired stuff, they quickly become annoying, and people lose respect for them and their message.

    Even worse, they make unseemly comments in threads where people are talking about moves, techniques, etc., that are outside the scope of what these "authorities" consider to be valid. Rather than whine about how this move isn't tango (even thought the move is what the thread is about), or offer opinions that don't really apply to the subject, maybe they should just stay out of those threads. Example: someone continually saying "There is no Villa Urquiza style" in a thread where we are talking about that style, is simply annoying. It doesn't help to win friends or influence people. If someone starts a thread about some topic, move, etc, that I don't like, I tend to stay out of it. It's not for me to tell them what they should or should not do in their own community.

    Tango is an art, and not just a science. Different people have different opinions on this stuff, and there also are local codes on different things. No one gets to decide what is valid for someone else (other than the organizer of a specific event). BTW, in Buenos Aires, most every style of tango you can imagine is danced someplace there. It's just that due to the volume of dancers, they can more easily keep certain people dancing a certain style in specific milongas and practicas.
    Subliminal likes this.
  12. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    No world-wide committee could possibly be representative, because the tango zealots decree that the only dance that matters is that to be seen in a tiny handful of milongas in a tiny number of venues in an incredibly limited geographical area of just one city. Almost no one dances this dance. The rest of us are just frauds: we should find a new name for our bastardised form of dancing, because it isn't tango, we should really be quite ashamed of our inadequacies.
  13. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    From Robert Farris Thompson's Tango: The Art History of Love. The single best book I have ever read on Tango history:


    "Petróleo and Lavandina introduced the pivot with enrosque (turned screw) around 1940. In enrosque, the dancer spins on one foot while the other foot rests on the ankle of the leg that is spinning. This trope was borrowed from ballet, where it is performed with the foot placed on the calf of the leg that revolves. Petróleo and Lavandina lowered the accent to the region of the ankle, keeping it close to the ground."


    An extended quote about "moves". Seem they've always been important...even in BsAs....shudder at the thought. Of course these folks danced in a barrio, not downtown, so their tango isn't pure. :rolleyes:

    START QUOTE
    Petróleo and El Negro Lavandina attracted an entourage of some twenty-one dancers who met regularly with the two masters to practice at the Club Nelson. New moves were their goal. All but two—Orcaizaguirre and Ramón Ribera—came from the barrio of Monte Castro. Mingo Pugliese has recorded their names and their noms de combat.

    Julio Leme: El Gurí (The Kid)
    Arturo Gardet: Perita el Experto (Perita the Expert)
    Juan Neme: El Turco (The Turk)
    Jorge Curís: El Turquito (Little Turk)
    Rafael Cirulo: Rafael
    Mario Zambán: El Rusito (The Little Russian)
    Roberto Marcos: La Biblia (The Bible)
    Francisco Hernández: Firpito (Little Firpo)
    José Bernardo: Josecito el Lecherito (Little Joe the Milkman)
    Miguel Roscella: Miguelito (Little Mike)
    José Arena: Pepe Arena
    Salvador Lorenzo Piazza: Piazza
    Pedro Bernal: El Pescá (The Fishmonger)
    Ricardo Scalisi Saúl Ricardo: El Flaco (The Thin Man)
    Roberto Estanislao Rolón: El Negro Rolón (Black Rolón)
    Salvador Sciana: Cacho Lavandina (Cacho the Bleach Painter); also El Negro Lavandina (The Black Bleach Painter); also Monte Castro
    Arturo Intile: Arturito (Little Arthur)
    Carlos Alberto Estévez: Petróleo (Drinker of Red Wine); also El Bailarin Imposible (The Impossible Dancer)
    Domingo José Pugliese: Mingo
    José Maturana: El Negro Pepe (Black Pepe)
    Raúl Leira: El Negro Raúl (Black Raúl)
    Ramón Ribera: Finito (Slim)
    Jorge Martin Orcaizaguirre: Virulazo (a hit in bocce)

    Petróleo and colleagues elaborated pique, in which the dancer taps the floor with the tip of his shoe—a stylish rethinking of Andalusian zapateo, animating motion with pinpoints of percussion.
    Further new sequences surged out of the clubs: raspadas, traspiés, and boleos. Raspada meaning “compass,” and that’s how it’s danced: left foot, in place, revolves on its axis; right foot, extended, draws a pure circle. They also called this step el lapiz (the pencil). Doing lápiz-raspada, tangueros trace two or three circles, exchange right foot for left, then resume the same action and draw several more. It’s dancing in geometric terms.

    Traspié, a counterstep, similarly keeps one foot still while the other moves. It echoes a step from candombe (discussed in the chapter on milonga) that in turn seems derived from the Kongo dance motion teeza maza (testing the waters), where one foot stays put (on the land) while the other rhythmically inches ahead (in the river).

    We come now to aggression in dance, the boleo. In the boleo the foot moves backward while kicking up fluently. In fact, the leg flicks back and comes down like a whip. María Nieves adds grace to this step; she curls up her heel with classical elegance, as if tracing the volute of an upside-down column. Essentially she is hooking the air as she comes out of an ocho. Petróleo developed this step and gave it its name: developed, not invented, for Méndez kicked back in the 1930s and so did black dancers in candombe and Kongo.

    Jorge Marquez, a dancer of Pompeya, is said to have invented the gan-cho.When air hooks collided with memories of the leg play of maxixe, the rise of the gancho was inevitable. In a gancho the woman wraps her leg around the leg of the man, then, just as suddenly, removes it. The man does the same. It’s flamelike, limbs licking limbs, as if embracing with arms offered not enough heat. It’s a high-octane blend of art and seduction.

    END QUOTE
  14. JohnEm

    JohnEm Member

    Social Tango is neither art nor science.

    Without going through your own whinge in detail it seems
    you think that we have to accept a teacher's way of explaining
    and doing things without comment even if someone else's view
    from experience disagrees with it. Forums are for exchange and
    I hope this one remains so.

    Your point about Buenos Aires is valid up to a point although the
    dominant and pervasive social dancing is apilado in the embrace.
    If we honestly identified and separated those styles in the threads
    in the same specific way that happens in Buenos Aires milongas
    I would have less argument. I have asked many times for that
    though I guess the arguments would then also be about styles.
  15. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    It's a good read, but his POV is hopelessly biased, because he is looking for every opportunity to advance the notion that the development of tango is 99% the work of black dancers and musicians. His evidence is pretty thin, really, but once you notice that he devotes three times the page coverage to a very minor figure like Salgan (because he was .....) and almost skips over Troilo and Pugliese, you start to question the rest of his premises.
  16. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    This is how an enrosque occurs with a chest lead, all turns to the left.

    Leading the giro starting with a back ocho. Front foot enrosque
    1. turn chest (left)
    2. then advance forward slightly to give room for the RF to cross in front of LF.
    3. continue turning chest to the left all the way around, keeping feet on the ground.
    4. eventually, you'll stop because your legs are twisted so much that it can't twist enough, usually a complete 360.

    Leading the giro starting with a front ocho. Back foot enrosque
    1. turn chest (left)
    2. back up ever so slightly to let the LF fall or hook behind the RF.
    3. continue turning chest to the left all the way around, feet on the ground.
    4. you should be able to do a complete 360 turn until your legs can't twist any farther.

    You must know how to lead a giro to do an enrosque. You should also be able to lead each step the woman takes during the turn as this makes the lead very clear.
  17. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Thank you, dchester.:)
  18. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Sure, he does have an agenda, and his academic specialty is African art. It's not a perfect book, but then again compared to most everything else out there (in English) it's very good. And, as a good scholar must do, there is an abundances of footnotes and references...
  19. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Not really. It was more about the comments, "this isn't tango", or "this is the true way it should be done".

    Comments, like, this is the way I do it, or this is my preference (which could be quite different from someone else's), and possibly explaining it, are perfectly legitimate, IMO.
  20. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    The quote starts on page 252-7, "Club Nelson Men".

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