Milonga Syncopation

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by AndaBien, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I'm trying to get at the point that there is always an underlying mechanism. If you understood that mechanism, then the solution would be easy no matter how varied the surface is. You wouldn't be distracted by the surface differences, hence why I said uselessly time consuming. This is the reason why
    Some teachers understand the underlying mechanisms more deeply than others. Also, I'm a very good teacher!:cool:

    Yes, there will always be exceptions. I am aware of this, however, the entire model isn't necessarily thrown out, just parts of it may not apply. You mentioned you had a disability, that can be worked around the model. Like a car with flat tire; the entire wheel isn't broken. (I hope you aren't offended by this analogy.)
  2. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    Yeah. That's why I said: "The bottom line is that we can be both similar AND different. Trying to decide which is more "important" (the similarity or the difference) is pointless because if only one was studied, we would miss out on half of the potential knowledge to be gained (by acknowledging both)."
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    So the underlying "mechanism" that is universal for teaching dance is... what exactly? OR does it matter what the subject matter is? Is it so universal that this mechanism works for all things or is it subject specific?

    Yeah... like by focusing on visual learning instead of auditory... which is exactly my point (and has been all along) You are saying that "current thinking" is that it doesn't matter whether the info is visual, auditory or kinesthetic.. we aren't all that "different".

    Yet now you say that when there is a difference, it can be gotten around. Yeah, it can... by acknowledging that there is a difference and by using what works! Haven't you just proved MY theory rather than your own?
  4. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    There is a distinction between a theoretical model and a pragmatic approach. They are different. They don't occupy the same space. They can't compete against each other. They can't be compared.

    It's like a car. The theoretical model has four wheels and an engine. But how it is built, the pragmatic approach, can be a sedan or a convertible. You can't compare the convertible to the 4 wheels but you can, however, compare it with the sedan.
  5. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    And that clears up... nothing.

    You completely sidestepped my question about how your "teaching mechanism" theory relates to teaching specific subject matter... and if a theory has no practical application to reality, then you can't make so many statements about it as though it's factual. A theory is only that until it is demonstrated in the real world. Saying it's theoretical rather than pragmatic is a dodge.

    Thanks for playing. It's been fun, but I can't indulge anymore. I'm going dancing... whether it is theoretical dancing or reality based pragmatic dancing, I ain't sayin' ;)
  6. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Yes. Current understanding of the brain is that it is a direct correlate to a computer. Input -> process -> output. Neuroscience is trying to figure out the process part. Psychology has figured out the output part.

    I don't know. I've only taught some people how to do certain things in dance and can re-explain or demonstrate something to students who don't understand the teacher. I'm not a dance teacher and am not interested in being one. I can only tell you the learning mechanisms from the learner's point of view since my only interest in teaching is learning, not pedagogy.
  7. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    It should clear up the fact that this is a distinction that needs to be understood. This is why my theoretical model approach sounds like it is contradicting the pragmatic approach when they are not.


    Don't make me have to think about how to apply it. I'm not a dance teacher, so I'm not paid to think about this stuff. If you want to learn how to ace an exam, all of them, with perfect marks, I can help you but if you're a dance teacher looking for my help, I want a cut of the increase in profits from your improvement as a teacher. :D
  8. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Simplistic, inaccurate and plain BS.

    Well, I've had many talks with my neurologist grad student daughter, who has also studied neuropsychology.... But I am not going there.
  9. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    You are confusing learning and teaching. A teacher SHOULD be interested in pedagogy, how to teach. A student should want to learn the craft/skill, not care about how the teacher teaches - only that the method is effective, ie. successfully transmits the craft/skill.
  10. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    The way I go about it from the student's perspective is this: I figure out what the student needs to do/know. I tell them/show them. They do it. Repeat. This is informed by how the brain functions and how we learn as a result.

    I'm not interested in pedagogy in the sense of teaching methodology. It may look like it from an outsiders point of view when I teach, but any resemblance to methodology is incidental.
  11. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    And that's why I'm not going to debate with you any further on how to do it.

    (Nor am I going to take your bait and defend whether I am a good dance teacher, or that you, without having taught dance, could figure out how to make me a better teacher if I paid you for your "expertise"... nice try though)

    See you around the forum. This thread has exhausted it's usefulness for me. If you have any tango questions, I'll be happy, in my bumbling inexpert way, to answer. People here say my posts have helped them... must have just been a fluke, though :rolleyes:
  12. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Neuroscience for Kids! The Brain versus the Computer

    "Throughout history, people have compared the brain to different inventions. In the past, the brain has been said to be like a water clock and a telephone switchboard. These days, the favorite invention that the brain is compared to is a computer. Some people use this comparison to say that the computer is better than the brain; some people say that the comparison shows that the brain is better than the computer. Perhaps, it is best to say that the brain is better at doing some jobs and the computer is better at doing other jobs."

    http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/bvc.html
  13. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I didn't know you were a dance teacher. Sorry.

    I only teach dance to those who want to improve and learn, but I'm not a dance teacher in the $$-making sense. You're going to have to take my word on this but if I taught someone with no dance experience how to dance tango (or salsa) you'd be able to spot her immediately. She will stick out like a beautiful and graceful thumb. I can usually do this in under 30 minutes, most often just 15. If you saw her, you'd think she'd been dancing for years.

    What I do is something very few teachers do: make specific and direct corrections. Also, when they get it right, they are affirmed with a clear "that's good" or "that's right". If they keep it correct, they continue to be praised until they don't need it any longer to remind them. I hold them to the highest standards of form and technique. This is why they achieve it.

    One caveat to this is that if they have previous dance experience, it makes it incredibly difficult to achieve anywhere close to the same results. This is because they've learned bad habits over the months or years and it's very difficult to correct in just 30 minutes. This is something I'm trying to figure out how to get their mindset off what they think should be happening and what I'm trying to get them to do. I need to induce a paradigm shift so they aren't thinking (and doing) what they've been accustomed to.
  14. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    LKSO: My impression is that you are a young guy, 20 something. I think you mean well and are passionate about the topics you've written about: music, tango dancing, neuroscience, psychology. But you can't keep claiming things that are very, very unlikely to be true. I mean to say, stop elaborating your accomplishments and knowledge. You come across as a poser. Back off, ask questions more, give strongly worded advice and comments rarely. (I should heed my own advice, but I'm old and crusty ;)).

    On the other hand if you're much older...you get the point.
  15. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I agree, with what you say about syncopation above. I just think the term is used very loosely by dancers, (and I agree about Belgica too; its like I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue's
    pick up song, and most dancers I know arent with a gnat's crotchet, including me.)
  16. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Oh, hey, in case anyone is interested, here is the title of the article I mentioned quite some time ago.

    Learning to Learn: Lessons from Diverse Traditions in Music and Dance. Terry Miller. College Music Symposium, vol 42 (2002), p 77
  17. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    *andragogy= teaching adults, just saying..
  18. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    Yup. Thanks for making the distinction. I wasn't entirely sure what the differences in teaching method are, so I did a quick wiki read of both terms. As I suspected, andragogy is a much newer term and concept. Malcolm Knowles seems to be an originator and primary academic. The article lists 6 of areas that (might) be more applicable in andragogy than pedagogy; they are motivation based and student directed, compared to pedagogy, teacher directed. The article also says Knowles changed his position on whether andragogy really applied only to adults and came to believe that "pedagogy-andragogy represents a continuum ranging from teacher-directed to student-directed learning and that both approaches are appropriate with children and adults, depending on the situation."
  19. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    Conditional Learning is more useful with adults, though I have heard of tango teachers who shout at their studentso_O

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