Milonga Syncopation

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by AndaBien, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Forget about "expected". That would mean you would dance with or against an build-in metronome or memory. But actually that occurs and occurred. Watch that milongueros of BsAs that enter a milonga at a certain time to dance the same certain piece for the hundredth time,
    unable to dance (sic ! dance ) to unknown music. All the same with the golden age music. Show stars like d'Arienzo and Biagi found approval with a mixture of confirming and confusing the audience. Real interpretation isn´t aware of anything like syncopation, traspie or the like!
  2. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Member

    I am puzzled because you are writing the milonga steps like
    x.x.x.x. or 1.2.3.4 - x.....x.....x.....x or 1.....2.....3.....4

    If these x are marking regular steps these series are describing two measures - Is it so?
  3. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    My intention was to describe a single measure, and no, it doesn't make complete sense. Since we don't have musical notation to work with, and some people would not understand it anyway, we're just doing the best we can.

    Don't forget, some milongas are written in 4/4 and others are in 2/4.
  4. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Umm, haven't I seen that axe you're grinding somewhere else before?
    opendoor likes this.
  5. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Member

    If we keep the idea that syncopation is playing against an existing, stable pattern we could get this play of thoughts

    Music
    No syncopation - If there was one they could have danced it

    Couple's relation to music
    No syncopation -Here the couple dances the regular accents.

    Dance steps
    Maybe syncopated - If they have been dancing, stepping together all the time and now introducing these steps
    Gssh likes this.
  6. Gssh

    Gssh Active Member

    Well, my (very messy) conceptualization is of the dancer as "emphasizing" beats by either using them, not using them, or "messing" with them. I have been thinking about this mostly in the context of salsa music (just because lots of people put examples on the web (my salsa is horrible - i basically gave it up when i started tango) )
    E.g. looking at http://scphillips.com/dance/salsarhythm.html :
    The basic rhythm would be something like "cowbell(basic)". The melody and the other instruments do all kinds of different things (that will make me look more or less in tune with what is happening in the music). The "milonga con traspie" somewhat similar to the clave - so if i do traspie i am creating a similar pattern of emphasis of beats and parts of beats as you can hear when listening to those two together, just by the way that my movement and that part of the music aligns and disaligns itself. (i know that tango rhythms are not really like that, but this is how i conceptualize the question "how much freedom and influence on how my follower experiences my dancing and the music do i have?" - i think i have a lot of freedom, and that freedom is to a large part by dancing not on the basic pulse of the music, but by dancing around it in some way that is supported somehow by the orchestra.

    The problem with this is that for this to work it has to be somehow understandable to me and to my follower how my and the musics rhythm interweave, and i have no real idea how this works in an abstract sense - i am reduced to saying the usual things about "it is all the music, you can hear where traspies fit, you can feel the milonga pulse, and just go with it". So, nothing useful at all. The best milongas seem to offer tons of ways to fit in there, and to dance with and against the different things the orchestra offers.

    Gssh
  7. Gssh

    Gssh Active Member

    That is the perfect definition of what we are trying to achieve! :) Confusing the audience (or in this case the follower) - and it only works because there is enough confitmation around it. Not following the expected rhythmic pattern just often enough to be a surprise and not often enough to allow the dance to become incomprehensible chaos.

    Gssh
    Mladenac likes this.
  8. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Member

    An off-beat question: I have had some experience about that with earlier videos but thought that the videos today are better because it is not bothering me now. Have you seen a change to the better with newer videos or had I just adapted?

    It is illogical but when I want to see if a couple is dancing musically I turn the sound to zero. I suppose, I can fully concentrate to watch the movements, how connection and variation of rhythm is for the couple when music is not carrying and camouflaging the steps.
  9. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    All I know is if you take their milonga classes, be ready for a workout. I was dog tired by the end of the day.

    I'll also add that this doesn't look like an old school milonga.

  10. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Sorry for getting off the topic. I´ve already calmed down again
    ;)
  11. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    But written does not mean "is". Musical notation is a crutch for transferring ideas from one individual to another. You may also choose the complicated or inconvenient way. Think we once had this discussion by the example of the deCarian revolution (the guardia nueva changed from 2/4 to 4/4).

    - I only want to add some vids, Jenna and Dominic Bridge dancing to something that is closer to a milonga campera instead of a porteña.

    - Next is a traditional habanera (contra or formation dance) for comparison. Watch that the habanera rhythm pattern is imaged in the stepping and thus resembles what is taught in some places as a milonga basic.

    - And finally just for fun, Jenna and Dominic dancing a "milypso" spontaneously on Time Square.
  12. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Least another idea, the traspies and/or doublings in milonga dancing are of european origin (in contrast to what always is written.) Simply watch candombe dancing in a murga or almost similar ritual brasilian candomblé (second half of the vid).
  13. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    Milonga syncopation is no different that syncopation in other music. See thread in General Discussion.
  14. NZ_Guy

    NZ_Guy Member

    Syncopation to me is about playing with anticipation. Either stepping a fraction before or after the follower or observer might expect.

    When I use it, I use it just once at a time - just before a new phrase or at the start of a new phrase - and not continuously. For me, it's a 'melodic' effect rather than a 'rhythmic' one (I'm using melodic and rhythmic in the sense that many tango people use the words - literally it is of course a rhythmic thing).
  15. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    I like to do what I call "dragging" or "pushing" the beat sometimes. On slow, lyrical music sometimes I dancing just slightly slower than the actual beat, feeling a sense of lingering (not loitering). For certain dramatic types of music (Pugliese) I sometimes rush the music a bit, creating (I hope) a sense of urgency or pandemonium. I usually don't let that last too long, to give me and my partner a respite.
  16. NZ_Guy

    NZ_Guy Member

    Jazz players (also latin and r&b players I believe) often play behind the beat or in front. If it is the same idea that you're talking about, that's quite fascinating in a dance context.

    (I was talking about delaying or advancing a single step by a half-beat (or quarter-beat depending on how you're counting)).
  17. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Member

    I am pretty convinced that traspie is a group name for all steps faster than double-time steps in tango. This kind of steps come up every now an then in tango but regularly in milonga.

    Milonga goes double as fast as tango; when you are taking two steps in tango in milonga you put down your feet four times. So if you are doing an ordinary double-time step in milonga it actually means double-double-time step in tango. I would call them for traspies. And i understand why they are also called QQS or SQQ.

    But there is one more possibility for milonga traspie when you will base your steps on music and it is when you dance the habanera2 accent followed by milonga's base beat2. That is actually double-double-double-time step if we use the tango time frame. You don't have time for an ordinary step but are just moving the foot two more cm forward - stumbling forward. This can not be described by QQS.

    Milonga
    Music teori Basic Milonga base.JPG

    Tango
    Music teori Basic 4_4. Beat 2.JPG

    More detailed story on my blog: http://leadingladyl.blogspot.com/
  18. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Member

    It seems that the bars are visible, in normal size only when you have logged in.
  19. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    It is visible and looks pretty good. Have you created the files in an excel chart? Concerning the contents: pm.
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I think this explains it.

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