Ballroom Dance > Minor rant: dance loyalty

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by Dance Monkey, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. Dance Monkey

    Dance Monkey New Member

    Perhaps im just different from you. I will eventually compartmentalize the offenders in such a way as to not be forever present when I dance. Then when they present themselves I bring them back to mind so that I can remember how and why to treat them as people I don't like. I am flexible enough that over time I can package behaviors specifically for individuals, groups and contexts.

    I disagree with your belief on forgiveness with respect to how it works for me.
  2. jerseydancer

    jerseydancer Active Member

    I cannot believe you still talking on this topic and still soo heated. This may give some hints on why the whole situation had happened.
  3. Wannabee

    Wannabee Well-Known Member

    I will agree that DOI is a bit blunt and condescending at times, even dead wrong in some instances from my viewpoint (no offense DOI :p). But her opinion resonates with many other posters on here. She just says it in a way that most people don't. No need to belittle her viewpoints just because you may not agree with them. I do believe her intentions to "help" were sincere and that's just rude IMHO.
  4. DancinBean

    DancinBean New Member

    Dance Monkey - I can't remember if you've said it before, but is it a one-time-and-we're-never-dancing-again thing? Or more of a repeat-offenders-make-my-blacklist thing? I ask as one of those (occasionally scatterbrained) girls, who to the best of my knowledge hasn't done anything like what you're talking about, but would be incredibly hurt to be suddenly forever off someone's dance card for a mistake I didn't even realize I was making at the time (forgetfulness happens, unfortunately - it's hard to apologize when you didn't realize an apology was in order). Especially if I was confused about the body language being used to ask for a dance....when someone grabs your arm "caveman-style", it's also a little disconcerting, and I can see where these girls might be momentarily flustered enough to forget their manners (ever had anyone grab your arm like that? Does not make for the clearest thoughts or best decisions).

    But if these girls are simply rude all around, seems like you're well within your rights to not dance with them. I would just ask, for my gender's half of the equation (and for us well-meaning but imperfect gals everywhere), that you go a little easier on the ones who are confused.
  5. danceronice

    danceronice Well-Known Member

    None taken. From my perspective, I'm right and I don't soften blows, and people find that condescending. (I think in part it comes from not being coddled as a child or praised unless I actually did something above average, which is as it should be. I'm still more comfortable with a pro who saves praise for when something's REALLY good! Also from twenty+ years in the horse world where, if you think dance teachers are harsh...) I don't do subjective well/at all, feelings are subjective, therefore feelings are irrelevant to an argument. Only observable facts.

    OP, if you are working on deliberately remembering "how and why to treat people you don't like", you should probably check out the enlightenment thread and try to get some enlightenment. You don't want to dance with women who slight you somehow, fine, don't dance with them. It's not typical in most dance venues for women to dodge a man who's asked her to dance if he hasn't phsyically hurt her in some way. You're either in a group of really rude people, or you're doing something where they're willing to be rude to get away from you. If it's the former, you need to find a group of people less rude. (And I seriously have never seen this, have never done it, and can only think this is not a typical studio-type venue because it's just bizarre.) You're unwilling to even consider that you are in any way contributory to the problem, so if it's the latter, you'll just have to live with being That Guy and keep a good record of who's on your enemies list.

    I somehow suspect that max's situation is similar only in that a woman clearly flaked on him. I do not get for a moment from his post that he is still seething or has her on some mental blacklist. Or, going by the above, that he was more than mildly perturbed for a moment.
  6. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    I was watching NCIS last night, before the storm killed TV. One of the characters quoted somebody I can't remember (Disraeli? No. I can't remember) as saying that cruel people often see themselves as frank.

    Just sayin. Not saying anybody here is cruel. Just saying that sometimes the way we perceive ourselves is different from the way we're perceived by others. I don't have to see myself the way other people see me, but ... I have learned, recently, that I have a lot to gain by occasionally TRYING to see myself through other people's lenses. It's up to me whether or not to adopt their view, but it's still educational for me to look through their glasses, every once in a while.

    Not talking about you, DOI. Talking about me.

    What is this thread about anyway? Followers who refuse dances? There are quite a few threads on this. I'll try to find one and post it, so we can discuss, without DF character analysis. Oy!
  7. madmaximus

    madmaximus Well-Known Member

    And you would be quite right DOI.

    Until there is harmony, balance, and peace in one's heart,
    one cannot expect it of one's environment.

    How I choose to treat (or not to treat somebody) comes from the heart, and will reflect in my dealings with other people (my environment), and how they treat me.

    If the first lady in my little tale asks me again, I would probably dance with her.

    Not out of any sense of forgiveness (if one doesn't accept a slight, there is none to forgive IMV),
    but because to NOT dance with her would be to disturb my own harmony.

  8. nucat78

    nucat78 Active Member

    Or find a regular partner (again) and concentrate on dancing well together.
  9. danceronice

    danceronice Well-Known Member

    Didn't we just HAVE a long thread about followers refusing dances? So it should be on the first page. With the concensus mostly being the lead has to be dangerous or REALLY unhygienic/obnoxious.

    And on the character analysis--there's also the saying "You have to be cruel to be kind."
  10. Wolfgang

    Wolfgang Member

    Not clear on whether this is about a dance social/lesson/practice party type environment or not, but it doesn't really matter. If the ladies are consistently preferring other guys despite the fact that you asked first, it's most likely based on height/looks/age. Yours, that is.
    Dancing skills, personal hygiene, manners, grooming, style of dress, etc. all secondary, trust me.
    Recommendation: Go to night clubs regularly to develop a MUCH thicker skin. You'll need it.
  11. DerekWeb

    DerekWeb Well-Known Member

    Still have not bought a shirt?
  12. Dance Monkey

    Dance Monkey New Member

    I'm not heated about this at all, I am interested in how far DOI will go though.

    It seems multiple responders here are missing the part where I said most are not the issue, its only some. Perhaps its the exaggerated way DOI keeps presenting an interpretation of the events, including my feelings on the matter. I suspect DOI could go on for quite a while... Hmmm that won't work so I shall ignore posts from DOI for the time being.

    I have previously posted a list of responses to queries about my investigations to CANI, if you look back then you may find answers to some of the repeat questions here. Other answers also include my own investigation into myself, which yielded the result that it is not me.

    The environment in question is mixed, both ballroom and club. One constant seems to be the maturity level of the dancers.
  13. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Oy. I scrolled back and read a bit. Not jumping into this fray. No sirree! *grin*
  14. Wannabee

    Wannabee Well-Known Member

    This is likely a very valid observation and I suspect is the majority of the problem. I have seen a few intentional slights here and there by women who thought they were too talented to dance with certain men, so I don't think it is specific to your particular dance venue. I have been slighted by men who thought they were too talented to dance with me, but I rest easy in the fact that several other talented dancers don't find me objectionable at all. So I spend my evening dancing with them.

    Those men who did ask me to dance were repaid with a cooperative and responsive follow. Once other leaders saw me dancing, more started to ask me. Now I can go to a studio party and rarely sit out a dance if I choose.

    If I were you, I would try to let it go, not re-ask those you deemed particularly rude, focus your attention on more willing partners, and just enjoy cuz life if short.
  15. BenjaminT

    BenjaminT Member

    I've swooped in front of a guy at a social once; intentionally. Of course, he was being very inappropriate with the young ladies and I was rescuing the one in question. She told me that she was actually relieved because he had her cornered. (This was the same lady who turned me down once because she had just turned down a creeper not fifteen seconds earlier. A rare find, and at my age, this one is...)

    So far, no one has swooped in front of me or got "confused." This is in spite of being tragically awkward and, how shall I say this, less than classically handsome. Even if it did, there's plenty to choose from.

    Even if I can't get a dance with a lady I'm "in like" with, so what? I figure that if I focus on my job, by focusing on the lady in front of me and showing her a good time, things will sort themselves out. I'm there to dance, first. If anybody wants more, they'll find a way to let me know... it may take a rather hefty clue-by-four, but I'm sure it will happen one day.

    p.s. I just had quite the argument with DOI on another thread and, yet, still maintain respect for her as a person and harbor nothing against. Don't think of anyone as simple two-dimensional archetypes; she's way more complex than what you're reading. Just don't be shocked to find out that she isn't a kiss-a$$.
  16. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    DOI totally rocks because she says what she thinks and doesn't get offended if you say what you think. Very liberating for everybody involved, IMV.
  17. Indiana_Jay

    Indiana_Jay Active Member

    Guess I'm lucky. I've been declined (although not often ... not because I'm good but because accepting invitations from everyone is the social norm in the venues I frequent) but I've never been dumped in favor of a second invitation. The closest thing to that was when a follower agreed in advance to dance the "next tango" or something like that, and for some reason it didn't happen ... probably she forgot about the reservation. It didn't bother me.

    Generally, however, I don't make reservations. I escort my previous partner off the floor and then visit the drinking fountain while all the other leads choose their partners for the next dance. Then I choose one from the remaining followers, trying to dance with as many different followers as possible. Perhaps that's why I haven't had the problem ... all the competition is already on the dance floor!

    Of course, this strategy means I might never dance with the most popular followers in the room, whether that popularity is based on dance skills, personality or looks. But that's OK with me. I'm there to dance.

    If however, a follower were to accept an invitation to dance and then immediately go dance with someone else for that same song, I would be, at best, dismayed and would probably be less likely to invite that follower in the future.

    If the OP wants to know how to prevent such behavior, I'd say probably the only thing to do is find another venue and/or follow my pattern and let all the other leaders get their partners first.

    I hope the problem isn't that the followers feel they need to be rescued from the OP because if that's the case, it will probably be impossible to confirm. Rare is the follower who will admit that's what's going on. But if I were the OP, I would not completely rule it out ... especially if it happens at a new venue.

    I do have a mental blacklist. Once, a follower declined, claiming to not know that dance. She was more advanced than me but I gave her the benefit of the doubt and said I'd return later. When I approached her later, she obviously avoided me. That behavior made it clear that, for whatever reason, she did not want to dance with me. I never invited her again. Had she just once invited me to dance, she would have been off the blacklist.

    Another follower danced with me several times. She never turned me down but I interpreted her behavior and body language to mean that she didn't enjoy dancing with me. After three or for dances like that, I put her on the mental "do not ask" list. All she has to do to get off that list is ask me to dance.

    I'm reconsidering this mental blacklist behavior, however, thanks to DancinBean's message:

    This message touched me, because I would be incredibly saddened to discover that a follower is incredibly hurt by the absence of invitations from me. Now that I think about it, it's probably better for me to erase the mental blacklist and keep giving even rude followers more chances. The worst that can happen won't kill me. And such behavior would be reflective of the grace I've known through my faith. Thanks, DancinBean for helping me see that.
  18. toothlesstiger

    toothlesstiger Well-Known Member

    As I said on another thread (One dance wonders), I suggested that, along with everything else, the lady ask me to dance once in a while, so that I know that she really wants to dance with me, and isn't just being polite..

    Not that I have to worry about that where I dance, the ladies are not shy about asking...
  19. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    You reminded me of one of my own old posts:
  20. wooh

    wooh Well-Known Member

    This post has made my night!

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