Discussion in 'Videos' started by jantango, Oct 31, 2009.
The story I've heard from some Argentines is that tango was being danced a little even though the military government frowned on it. When the military government was deposed it became possible to dance again, but was out of favor, and out of places to do it. The thing that brought it back to global attention was Copes' hit show, "Tango Argentino", I think in the late 1980's. People in Europe and America became interested in it again, and that interest sparked renewed popular interest in Argentina. Oddly, that's somewhat the history of early tango, also.
I visited BA in 1995 and stayed in a 5-star hotel. We asked the concierge about going to a milonga, and he said there were no milongas any more. A government official gave a similar response. Much of the renaissance of tango in BA has been since then.
Daniel Trenner was in Argentina in the mid to late 80s (as well as in the 90s), as I recall him saying. He did more than probably anyone to bring social dancing (tango) to the US.
In the search for "authenticity" most people have settled on the Golden Age music as danced in the center of Buenos Aires.
I think most people have much to learn about the century (plus) long history of tango, and the many forms it has had during that time. The creators of "Nuevo" have said time and again that they have created nothing new.
I feel this is more a struggle of the non argentinean community: who has found the true holy grail of tango.
My general impression of Buenos Airs is, that there is the usuall teasing between the different groups but no open enmity. The stage guys respect the old timers for their style, ease and experience. And as long as they don’t do a show on their dance floor the old timers respect the stage guys for having a paid job and putting food on the table. I’ve seen some of the milongueros pulling off a quite a show as well: Marta Anton and el “Gallego” Manolo or Mirta Sol and Luis Gordona come to my mind. (Hope his health is getting a bit better now). For most Argentinean dancers it's just the same dance adapted to different conditions.
There was big trouble when the Nuevo style hindered the flow of the traditional milongas. Since there are now nuevo- and traditional-only-events this seems to be sorted out. As long as everybody can do his thing without be disturbed by the other fraction they seem to get along quite well.
Tango was danced in Buenos Aires when the military was in power, although very little and privately. My sources are milongueros who have danced continuously since the 1950s.
Tango Argentino premiered in 1984 in Paris. It toured the world and caught the attention of everyone.
Of course you know that milongas existed in 1995 in BsAs but information was hard to come by. It's not surprising that the concierge had no idea where to send you. It was that same year that the magazine B.A. Tango --Buenos Aires Tango first appeared as a free, bi-weekly publication with milonga listings. It was the only source for current information in 1995 for tango in Buenos Aires.
Also, just because one is not dancing the fancy steps, but is instead dancing the much-touted simple steps of "true milongueros," doesn't mean they also aren't doing patterns/sequences/the same damn thing over and over and over again with no musicality or feeling or whatever else. Just as you have noticed fancy dancers dancing the same patters for years with no nuance, I know (and have danced with) plenty of gents doing simple steps...in the same patterns, with no nuance, and with no sensitivity to the music.
Regardless of style, good, connected, musical dancing is good, connected, musical dancing. It can happen with the simplest of steps or the the most complicated Nuevo movements. Boring, repetitive, autopilot, patterns can happen with either, as well.
Just because a guy has to stop and explain things to his follower doesn't necessarily mean that the patterns are unleadable...it could mean he's not a good lead, or she's not a good follower.
thanks for these true words
Let's not forget they've said time and time again the opposite, e.g. Fabian Salas:
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We have invented a new profession: Tango teacher. We, Gustavo (Naveira) and a few others in the early 90ties- are the first professional tango teachers.
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Nowadays dancers go to milongas and are not even aware what is traditional and what is new. They adopt our structured approach to tango in a natural way and dance moves without knowing their origin.[/FONT]
go to Europe, most of these people dance the way we do ... they don't even know where it comes from. ... they don't know what is the so-called traditional Tango is compared to this so-called new Tango. ... Today it's totally different than it was 8 years ago. And that came from us. From two guys: Gustavo and me.
For instance it simply does not make sense that they are the first professional tango teachers. History tells us otherwise.
Perhaps Gustavo has a much larger ego than Fabian Salas, who was very clear in stating that they created nothing new.
> For instance it simply does not make sense that
> they are the first professional tango teachers.
No surprise there. Very little of what they said made sense. But then it didn't have to - it was for sale to people having virtually no understanding of tango.
> Perhaps Gustavo has a much larger ego than Fabian Salas, who
> was very clear in stating that they created nothing new.
Actually those claims quoted, inc [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We have invented a new profession [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]was from the smaller of the two egos.
Funny the way you plough through the old threads and stir them up. But, Chris, you make it too easy. I tried to establish the term Neo here in this forum, when I started posting. Before there was a mined demarcation line called nuevo - viejo .
The real founder of Tango Nuevo Dancing was Carlos Copes! Naveira and Salas gave rise to a new tango didactic, and later on to the birth of Neo Tango.
And there was also a commercial aspect:
The time Gustavo (and Fabian) started teaching and established that "We have to hurry up, cause the milongueros die out" - myth , the cake was devided ( understand? german allegory) between Copes, Herrera, and Zotto, with their rather academic approach.
> The real founder of Tango Nuevo Dancing was Carlos Copes!
Coo... if you have even one video of Copes dancing nuevo, I would like to see it.
> Naveira and Salas gave rise to a new tango didactic,
> and later on to the birth of Neo Tango.
Do you have a video illustrating how neo differs from nuevo?
I think to most people nuevo and neo are the same thing in different languages e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neotango .
In many cases, esp "nuevo" things, I hesitate to say that "the follow doesn't follow well", but more that there are lead/follow concepts with which she is not familiar. In CE, the conceptual basis for the follow is more-or-less: 1. stay on the leg you are on until you are led to step, 2. do nothing that breaks the connection/takes you off your balance depending on the CE style (apilado or whatever).
In "nuevo", the ideas of energy based lead/follow, managment of your free leg, suspension, allowing yourself to be led off your axis, esp a colgada where you may have only arm support, and even the idea of stepping firmly into to your leader for a follower sacada or displacement of the leaders leg (Peaches - I think cadena may have been the word you lost in some other post) are essential aspects of the dance. If a follow hasn't been taught these concepts, she can't be lead to perform nearly any of the movements that would result.
So I prefer to think that it is more likely that she simply has not learned these "more sophisticated" (???) concepts. BTW, for the curious, sophisticate originally meant to corrupt, or pollute.
This is exactly the same approach as I was taught by one time by both Robert Hauk, and the less well known but equally talented Steven Payne, here in Portland.
And both of them taught strictly "close embrace". Payne never called what he taught anything but "tango", and of course Hauk used the same term as Suanna Miller, milonguero.
(Based on one sampling of what Robert is teaching recently, he has changed his tune.)
So, I believe we can leave off your phrase
Curiously, we end up with something like, It's all Argentine Tango; which just happens to coincide with how, as I understand, many Argentines feel about different styles.
I agree totally. But I use the "nuevo" label for dancing with these concepts, especially describing energy leads (e.g. for linear boleos), or inertia based leads (e.g. for "leg left behind" rotational boleos) simply to avoid pissing off the way traditional dancers. I.e., they will automatically discount whatever I've said, throw it in the bucket of "other useless ca@p", and so I (think) I get to more easily avoid fire fights and flame wars.
I actually see much more continuity in the ideas of nuevo - for me the basic framework of nuevo is 1) stay on the axis that you are on till you are activly take off that axis and 2) do not establish a new axis until the leader establishes it for you.
so for me the difference is that the main job of a ce follower activly maintains the connection, while the main job of a nuevo follower is to wait till the leader establishes a new axis for her. Management of the free leg, suspensions, colgadas, even stepping into your leader are for me all examples of "do not establish a new axis before i tell you". Free leg: the leg is relaxed, loose, floating, but not will not come down and establish a new axis until the leader makes it. Suspension: same thing colgada: same thing stepping into the leader: not stepping through would mean the follower blocks the lead and establishes an axis before the leader wants her to.
I just noticed that this might again be a confusing thing terminology wise, so let me try to define what i mean with axis there: the axis of the follower is her rotational axis. a follower has three potential axes: through the right foot, throught the left foot, and through the middle between both feet if they are both grounded. They all can be on balance, or, if the leader takes her off balance, off balance. What i think of as the basic volcada works in my mind this way: The follower is on her left axis. I cross step back and left with my right foot - this takes her off balance, but she maintains the axis, so while the right foot floats outwards it does not go to the ground/support her balance/create a new axis. I step side with my left foot, maintaining my distance from her left foor (that is the axis of both of us - this is on a the circumference of a circle that is centered on her left foot). Her right leg continues floating, and due to the momentum ends up crossed, both feet relatively close together. Now there are a whole bunch of options: Ground her, so now she is on her right axis, walk out. Ground her, and do a volgada around her right axis. Don't ground her, and reverse the movement. Doubletime a shift of axis, so she is grounded right, and then grounded left again, reverse the whole thing. Tricky, but really cool with a sensitive follower: Ground her on the middle axis (both feet), walk around her clockwise which will first uncross her, then recross her, then she will reach the limit of her crossing, forcing her from the middle axis onto her left axis and with that momentum i can add another volcada.
None of this would happen using pure ce following technique: a ce follower would step to maintain the connection, an not allow herself to float in an unstable position.
(interestingly i use a slightly different concept of what the "axis" is when i talk about ce or oe - and what i think "maintaining balance" is is also slightly different *sigh* we have to do a df tango meet sometime - i think if we actually danced this we would agree much more ) Gssh
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