Mr. Nuevo on stage with Milongueros

Discussion in 'Videos' started by jantango, Oct 31, 2009.

  1. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Personally I would say:
    - Nuevo Tango music is the Piazolla stuff onwards
    - Nuevo Tango dancing is the Salas stuff onwards
    - Neo tango is specifically for music and relates to the Gotan stuff onwards.

    More or less.
  2. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    Strangely enough, I've found that the more my lead improves, the less I find any patterns to be unleadable.

    I'd be surprised if there were any unleadable patterns in Tango, in fact (with the exception of Fantasia of course).

    Funnily enough, here's an article on patterns... :)
  3. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    Sure. Most of what nuevo people call nuevo is nuevo only to them. People like Fabian and Chicho started teaching after only about two years dancing tango. They were miles short of the understanding of those who had danced in milognas for decades. The term "nuevo" tells more about what they don't know than what they know.

    It's all Argentine Tango ???

    If Argentine Tango is defined by what any Argentine says is tango, Yes.

    If Argentine tango is defined by respect for the music, the embrace and the ronda, No.
  4. tangonuevo

    tangonuevo New Member

    I generally agree with all that you wrote.

    However, I still find that many followers, unless they have specifically been taught the concepts and practiced them, don't get a lot of what you wrote. E.g. I ground one leg firmly, and then carefully send them off axis into a small colgada. Many step. Maybe because they don't think I can support them, but mostly 'cause they don't get it. The worst cases are when a follow fights me and tries to keep her hips over her standing leg and just tips her upper body out there. Death and destruction!!! I don't do that again.

    Another case is an inertial boleo where the "heavy" free leg is left behind. Unless they allow their leg to really be free and NOT apply their muscles, it doesn't work, so I don't lead that again. Etc. I think the concept that the free leg is REALLY free, with no added forces, takes a fair amount of practice.

    In summary, my position is that many "bad" follows and not bad at all! They just haven't been exposed to the range of concepts we are discussing. I think it's outstandingly difficult to generalize from "don't establish a new axis without a lead" to "and OBTW, your free leg is REALLY floppy in concept, but you still need to manage it and add styling within that framework!" Wow. I follow too and this is not easy even if I intellectually know what I'm sposed to be doing!!
  5. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Bingo!

    IME, they're the same fundamental concepts, but applied in ways that are not necessarily readily apparent, and not particularly easy without a lot of practice. If you haven't been exposed to the possibilities, it can be difficult to know that you are "allowed" to do that, so the temptation is to fit this slightly different lead into the repertoire of what you know to be OK. Problems ensue.
  6. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    If I may, a vertical axis exists from the center of gravity (hard to identify exactly in a human body). Again, it is the leaving out of the adjective, "vertical" that leads to much confusion.
    Regading rotational axis...
    It is possible, and I think we all know this, to "take the woman off her axis", her vertical axis, and rotate around her "grounded" foot. Now, her vertical axis is in front of the grounded foot, as it is in apilado.
    A vertical axis, which we rotate around, can be "imagined" above her weighted foot, but her center of gravity is no longer above it!
  7. chrisjj

    chrisjj New Member

    In my experience, girls begin without any idea of what moves are "allowed". If they learn to dance before such an inhibition gets imprinted, they're free to dance any possibility the guy presents. These are the girls with whom I most love to dance.
  8. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I'm going to disagree with Gsshh? I think this may be a first.

    Your post implies that you can't do a volcada in CE, which we know is not true. It can be led, and it can be followed, without breaking CE "rules" (or maybe I have just been ignoring rules so long, I don't even realize I'm breaking them) And of course, if you are dancing apilado, the follower is "floating in an unstable position" for the whole dance.

    Executing a volcada instead of a step comes down to indicating NO transfer of weight in the movement. The embrace chosen at the beginning of the dance is not the issue. It has to change to execute the V from open, but it doesn't have to change much (if at all) to execute the V in CE.

    So to me, this whole debate makes little sense. Nuevo means don't change your axix until led to do so? Your description of "axis" in this example seems to mean transfer weight.. Proper CE following is the same. Don't change weight without being led to do so.

    And if you are in close you also wouldn't change anything else about your axis without being led to do so... just like you are saying with Nuevo... the difference comes more in the likelyhood of you being led to change those other things, like leaning in or out more than the initial embrace suggested, or going from one to the other in a "flexible" embrace.

    So maybe you could clarify your points as regards all that?
  9. Gssh

    Gssh Active Member

    See, that is the thing - when i try to understand nuevo movements i think of a axis - often non vertical - that runs trough the followers body, and around which her movement options are organized. So to go back to the volcada - if i just step with small steps backwards i feel that axis through her body tilt further and further till it "breaks" - the break comes at the point where either she stops trusting me - and puts her "free" foot down, or it goes beyond what she can support with her back - and she puts her "free" foot down, or it goes beyond where i am actually strong enough to support her - and then the axis stays in place, but i drop her and she will never dance with me again - or she will decide that she can only trust me up to a certain point.

    And often a follower has not been exposed to this as a general prinicple, but as a "figure" which makes them switch to different principles when they encounter a "figure" they are not familiar with. I think followers come with an exceedingly strong idea of what figures are allowed - the ones where they don't get the feeling that they are going to fall down.
    And every single leader who leads an off-balance move and does not make her feel secure in it poisons the well. I often think that it is possible to read in followers bodies a whole history of abuse and resulting distrust - the follower who will do volcadas, but no colgadas, the follower who will do the opposite, the ones who don't allow backward saccadas, and so on and so on.

    I follow, too (quite badly), and i have to say that while i intellectually see this as an unified principle, and it helps me to explore the possibilites of my dance as a leader, i also know the "omg i will fall" feeling way too well, and i am often surprised what some followers will dance with leaders that obviuosly do not have the technique to do what they are thinking they are doing.

    When i think of ce, i think of a vertical rotational axis that is activly maintained and manipulated by both dancers.

    Gssh
  10. Gssh

    Gssh Active Member

    Of course you can dance a volcada in ce - i do it all the times. I believe there is a difference in the degree of off balance, though.

    {warning - i have not really thought about border cases - i use these ideas mainly to understand and explore the options of the possibilites in my leading- so this might be quite wrong}

    I think in theory a ce volcada is limited to the moment where the follower still has an equal share on the responsibility for the stability of the couple. I think that the moment she looses her agency in maintaining the connection she would have to walk to establish it again. This is still a volcada, but i don't think it can be as deep as it can be with what i think of as a nuevo framework. Maybe a volcada is not a good example - i think everybody dances them in ce (thought i also think that the technique is subtly different) - maybe the tokyo drift is a better example of what i mean?

    I think there is a whole range of things that are "not leading a weightshift", too - one of the ce things i like is just walking through the follower at an angle - she will get out of the way, and she will sort out her footwork on her own. a very brave oe follower shouldn't get out of the way :). in nuevo e.g. a right back saccada out of the right turn i basically always break the connection at least partially, but the follower will usually wait the split second i need because she is grounded on the middle axis. A theoretical pure ce follower would continue the turn and reestablish the connection.

    Really, i have no idea what is or is not possible, and even less an idea that i know the rules - i am trying to understand the dance better by brainstorming over what underlying principles are at work. In rl things are a lot less black and white, and at least for me my technique and vocabulary is a big heap of things that i have picked up at a lot of different places. And what it intersting to me is that some of the pieces on that heap readily interlock with each other, and others don't.

    Gssh
  11. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    When I began learning AT I attended many classes where sequences were taught. My question to the teachers was often, “How do I lead that?” Their answer was often vague, but amounting to “You just lead it”. As I became more experienced I discovered that their answer was correct. I have realized that a lot more could be lead than I previously imagined.

    However, there are certain moves that require the follower to “understand” the lead, meaning that she has to have prior knowledge of the movement. I do not consider these movements “leadable”, because the follower would only follow “correctly” in she interpreted the lead, rather than only follow it. I continue to learn more about leading, but I still consider many movements unleadable because the follower would only do it if she already knew what was expected. I think follower's sacadas fall into this category, because she must step outside her personal zone of dance.
  12. Dave Bailey

    Dave Bailey New Member

    I think there are a few "axioms" that followers need to get solid (free leg movement, only follow exactly what is led, and so on), but once they've got that, almost everything is leadable.

    I think sacadas are theoretically leadable on a follower who knows all about the technique but has never encountered a sacada before.

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