NDCA Rule Rescinded: No more amateurs in Pro/am events

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by DanceMentor, Jul 17, 2011.

  1. dlgodud

    dlgodud Active Member

    Hmmm.....not sure about cheating their income tax returns because I don't prepare their income tax returns. But, they are not the only ones who cheat on income taxes in the US.
    So why they advocate a legitimate way of making money for AMs to be able to support their own dancing instead of cheating around.
    Anyway, one side shows that they have no interest of ballroom dancing being part of the Olympics. So is that a really issue of AMs making money?
     
  2. dlgodud

    dlgodud Active Member

    I understand the part. Personally, I don't really care if an AM who is a championship level dancer competing in Pro-Am category or ProAm-Am category, whatever it is.

    I will be glad if I compete against high level dancers, and lose against them very badly as long as I enjoy my dancing.
     
  3. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    I could be wrong, but I think that they now can, in theory, now compete against you as the "am" in pro-am, while earning money dancing as the senior half in mixed proficiency amateur.

    In practice, this is much more likely to be an issue with men than with women.
     
  4. tanya_the_dancer

    tanya_the_dancer Well-Known Member

    Wouldn't that still count as teaching (sort of), which is still a no-no for am half of a pro-am team?

    And I agree that it is more of an issue with men, considering how lopsided the gender ratio is.
     
  5. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    I think it is sad that amateurs cannot take their students in the pro/am division. It seemed like amateurs in the US finally had a chance to make enough money to fund their training to somewhat compare to the European amateur dancers. However i understand where the "professionals" are coming from. Although there are some professionals who are great dancers and teachers, I personally think that the level of dancing in amateur is far superior to the level of dancing in professional. The Students are the ones that are paying the money which is why they should be able to dance with the whoever they want, amateur or professional. Just because the current pros cannot hold on to their students does not mean the amateurs have to suffer for it. I really hope the rule changes back again!!
     
  6. foxtrotboy

    foxtrotboy New Member

    The flip side is, of course, that if amateurs could dance Pro-Am, that would mean Pros could dance amateur. Syllabus level amateur competition would essentially become Pro-am competition. Not very fair to syllabus level dancers trying to work their way up through the ranks, and there would be nothing to stop them, because many Pros don't have USAD proficiency points to keep them out of the lower levels. Maybe a compromise would be to allow Pros to only enter in open level amateur competition and vice-versa.
     
  7. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    The only place I know where the top amateurs are "comparable" to the top pros is Europe (Italy, Russia, etc). However, it is important to recognize these top amateurs make a lot of their money from participating on the circuit which has lucrative television and media deals, and not nearly so much from teaching, and definitely not from pro/am.

    As hard as we might try to duplicate what we see over in Europe, our system in the US is different. We don't have the television and media coverage, especially as relates to amateurs. We have Dancing with the Stars, but nearly zero coverage of our pros and amateurs. Instead we have pro/am which is the leading source of funding.

    I can understand there being amateurs who somehow want to draw on this pro/am money, but to somehow "merge" amateurs with pro/am is something the pros will fight hard against. And not just the pros but their students too, and they are the ones with the money. Good luck trying to get at that money. Not going to happen easily.
     
  8. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    First of all, the amateurs in the US are definitely comparable to the professionals. What is the real difference between amateur and professional? It takes basically nothing to move into the professional category. A bronze or silver level dancer can easily turn professional and it would basically be the same thing but he would be a "professional." Maybe there should be a certain level restriction for when an am or pro can dance with a student, but to separate by just the name is stupid.
     
  9. debmc

    debmc Well-Known Member

    Two things come to my mind here. First of all, Larinda, I am surprised that your silver level male students actually found ladies to dance "proam" with, with your male students becoming the teacher. No matter how good they might be at dancing, to be able to actually teach their female students how to do their part well and rise through the ranks of proam requires alot more than just them being good dancers. Secondly, I certainly would not want to be out on the dance floor and see that the women I am in heats with are actually good enough to be teaching and competing as teachers on the am-am Sunday or whatever it is called. I think pro am students work very hard and take this very seriously and we want good competition but we want fair competition.
     
  10. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    I don't see how a bronze or silver level dancer could make a living as a dance pro anywhere near where I live.

    If I may ask: on what basis do you make your claims? What's your background in dancing?
     
  11. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Well the one that left me 4 years ago to do his loophole version of pro-am... I was actually looking forward to dancing against him, me and my current silver student would have whooped his butt!! I never said the guy was any good or could teach... but that he was doing amateur version of pro-am for years!

    But when it comes down to it... this summer he stayed on Sundays with the amateur events... he and his wife and his "student" never ventured out on to the real floor with the real pros!

    The two recent ones that have left me currently are being hired, not to teach, but to just service out a bunch of women for the pro-am floor, kinda like being hired to be a dance host on a friday night party.
     
  12. Meagan

    Meagan Active Member

    It sounds then that they would have/could have left just as easily before the rule changed then. I definitely get that having more teachers around makes it harder for the pros of the pro-am, more competition even not great competition dwindles the field. It just seems less likely that tons of former pro-amers are leaving it in order to make money as the new "pro" just to maintain their amateur status (which would only matter if they were still doing pro-am or am-am as the AM)

    I guess I'm just not understanding some of the arguments that are getting thrown around. It doesn't really matter to me either way (ams earning money teaching is about as far as concerns me) but I'd like to at least understand the logic. :rolleyes:
     
  13. DL

    DL Well-Known Member

    (At the risk of sounding like a (wannabe) MBA student): What's the career path / revenue stream for accomplished pros in markets that don't monetize pro-am competition? I assume the media opportunities you mention dry up fairly early, as retirement time scales are typically measured.
     
  14. FeetwithaBeat

    FeetwithaBeat New Member

    What I find utterly amazing is the assumption that just because someone can dance they can also teach. Most people have no idea the number of hours and the amount of money that someone like Larinda has put into the art of TEACHING dance -- it's very obvious by the track record she has with her students -- this woman knows HOW to achieve results with her students. This is a skill that takes training and time. If there were some sort of qualifying exam that amateur teachers would have to take to assess their teaching and pro/am competition skills then maybe this could work -- but then if you're going to take the time to do that kind of training, why not just go ahead and label yourself a pro?Just because one is a US Amateur champion doesn't automatically make one a "teacher." I had a coaching lesson once with a former US Amateur Champion who INSISTED that heel leads be taken in all forward steps in Rumba. HMMMM even a lowly non-competing pro and social dance teacher such as myself found this questionable.
     
  15. debmc

    debmc Well-Known Member

    Yes, I agree FeetwithaBeat. It takes alot more than being a good dancer to be able to teach, especially as one is usually teaching the opposite gender their part of the dance. To be able to convey that accurately is amazing.
     
  16. Meagan

    Meagan Active Member

    Except pros don't really need to take a qualifying exam to become pro either. Of course many do but that isn't really the issue. I don't think anyone is saying they don't want quality pros. But just as being a top quality am doesn't make you a good teacher, neither does proclaiming yourself a professional.
     
  17. danceronice

    danceronice Well-Known Member

    Of course, while it's the SPIRIT of the division, is it written that the pro half of pro/am has to actually be the one doing the teaching? Or just the one registered as a pro who shows up at the competition to dance with the student? Their teaching ability might be beside the point, provided they turn up to dance with the student at the event. Which makes more sense than you'd think with male pros--female students tend to be around the same age (the majority falling in the B division) meaning a successful TEACHER may end up with more students, especially in silver and bronze, than he can dance with. And while most students do understand having to take turns for dancing the scholarships or maybe having to skip this comp, that does start to grate and eventually can cost you business.
     
  18. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    It is true, being a good dancer does not mean you are a good teacher. However this applies to professionals also. Feetwithabeat I am really curious to know which former us amateur champion told you to take heel steps in rumba because I cannot believe that someone could reach that level of dancing with the wrong technique. There really is no difference between pros dancing with students in pro am or ams doing it, since the ams could just as easily turn pro. If they are making a level for ams to dance with older students I feel like that would hurt the business of pros even more. Since the registration cost to dance singles with an am is much much lower than the registration cost of dancing pro am with a pro.
     
  19. nucat78

    nucat78 Active Member

    Hey, Hey, HEY! I resemble that remark. :p:p:p ;)
     
  20. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    A teacher in Pro-am needs to be able to dance with many different people successfully (sizes, physical ability, etc.). An amateur couple or professional couple have different goals in that they are more dedicated to each other in dance. An excellent pro-am teacher can nearly duplicate this experience of dancing with the best partner possible. A newer competitor cannot so easily "spread the wealth" to multiple partners. It takes skill and experience.
     

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