NDCA Rule Rescinded: No more amateurs in Pro/am events

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by DanceMentor, Jul 17, 2011.

  1. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    Dancementor... I am not sure what you mean with that comment. I am pretty sure that most of the pro am teachers are competing themselves in professional. I also do not think that a pro am teacher necessarily has more experience than an amateur. You can dance in amateur up until the age of 35 and most of the competitive dancers begin dancing at a very early age. I know plenty of amateur dancers who have been dancing, teaching, and competing for over 15 years. Whether or not the teacher is dancing successfully, that is for the student to decide. Dancing is evolving everyday which is why the most successful teachers are the ones that are still training and competing themselves.
  2. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    meh...there are many, many successful pro/am instructors who are no longer competing with a pro partner...I can think of at least a dozen excruciatingly successful ones who no longer compete as a pro couple
  3. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    Alain Doucet, Jim Maranto, Ben Ermis, Shalene Archer, Rauno Ilo, Chris Johnston, our own Larinda
  4. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    I'm not saying there are not good pro am teachers that aren't competing. However, if you look at dance ten years ago, it is much different from what it is today. Teachers need to keep training and taking lessons themselves so that they can stay with the new breakthroughs in dance. If a teacher just stops training, it is only a matter of time before what he/she is teaching becomes outdated.
  5. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    sure...if they stop training...but I wouldn't equate that with being currently in a pro partnership, nor would I expect that decline to be rapid
  6. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    There are two world class coaches in my studio this week. And last week we had another. I see more coaches now than I did while I was actively competing.

    Training did not stop, never stopped. While I was dancing it was very very selfish lessons. They were all about me... certainly not about helping or teaching others. I am a FAR FAR better teacher Now that I am not dancing for myself.
  7. MissKitty

    MissKitty New Member

    I find this subject absolutely fascinting!

    We have no 'Pro/Am' here, so I find this thread so interesting to read. Im so glad I have dance forums to open my eyes to dancing around the world!

    If you are a professional you may teach, and compete as a professional.
    If you are an amatuer you may NOT teach, and compete as an amatuer.

    The most an amatuer here may do, is ASSIST their teacher with a social class.

    The rules are very strict and there are penalties for those who break them.

    There is no middle ground what so ever. I must say it seems less confusing!

    On the other hand - I wonder if having a Pro/Am division here might be a good thing. There are so many lady dancers who cannot find partners and whom might like to compete if they were competing against others like themselves.
  8. benm

    benm Member

    It never made sense to me that Professional and Amateur are mutually exclusive divisions. Politics aside, it seems more consistent to allow Amateur couples to dance up into Professional without turning pro, similar to how a Youth couple can dance up into Adult. This would allow the top amateur couples to be compared against the pros, which currently does not happen unless the amateur couple in question turns pro.
  9. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    Larinda, it is great that there are non competing teachers that still train with the world class coaches. However, if this is the case then you should have nothing to worry about. Why are you so against ams dancing in pro am if you clearly are a great teacher?
  10. nucat78

    nucat78 Active Member

    Ah. Sanity reigns in NZ.

    Have the pros in the pro-am fit the above definition and have the ams in the pro-am fit their definition. Seems straightforward and logical.
  11. danceronice

    danceronice Well-Known Member

    Did you miss where her *male* students were the ones switching to dance as "professional ams" in pro/am? These aren't the people the rule was made to target (the top ams who are teaching), these are silver-level ams. It's hard enough on female pros as it is without encouraging their students to dump them to make a quick buck--these aren't people who are going to be going to Worlds and competing with the Europeans, they're, as mentioned, getting talked into being taxi dancers.
  12. wooh

    wooh Well-Known Member

    What's the problem with having to take the bad along with the good if you want to go pro, by having to actually go PRO?
    People want the benefits of both without having to take on the problems as well.
  13. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    I think very few would actually take advantage of the opportunity, no matter how much they might claim to want to face stronger competition. The fact is, if they want to face stronger competition, they can easily do so by turning pro. Staying amateur once you reach the top means that you prefer to do better against a weaker field.
  14. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    As I said earlier... my lessons are not in trouble with ams teaching next to me. I am lucky in that my schedule stays quite full.

    I don't like ams doing the pro side of pro-am, not because I am competing against them... but when they do that they have to leave the am side of pro-am... and I loose my pool of guys to compete with.

    I am not afraid of loosing teaching money, and I am not afraid of losing a competition to them... but would you rather MAKE a quick 100 bucks for the weekend dancing pro-am, or would you rather PAY ME to dance with you??

    In the end I still till teach them all... whether they dance with me or against me. But the fact that if you teach you cannot do pro-AM coupled with the fact that if an am does PRO-am they they no longer can do pro-AM... my pool of competitors is the only divison that is being restricted, and therefore everyone is jumping ship...

    And DOI is right... this is a very unfortunate side-effect (that I saw coming) because these guys are NOT the ones that the ruling was put into place for.
  15. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    I disagree with this claim. The reason people turn pro is for two reasons. Either you are the world champion in amateur and you turn pro so that you have a name and a chance to be in the top of pro, which is a very small percentage of dancers. Or you turn pro because you are too old to compete with the younger dancers. Once you are over the age of 28 or 29 you cannot compare to an 18 year old. They are just more in shape and can do much more than you. So you turn pro so that you can compete against people more your age. The skill level has nothing to do with it! Face it you can be a very smart and skilled dancer but you cannot change your age. I really think the only reason the pros do not want amateurs on the same floor as them is because they are afraid of much younger dancers being able to do more than them.
  16. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Sure if you compare the top amateurs against an mediocre pro. But compare the top ams against the top pros... and most of them in the amateur final would be LUCKY to make a pro semi....

    Considering that our best am only made the quarter at blackpool (and only one of them).... I'd say that our ams are far behind the curve actually.

    So, if you are going to compare make sure you compare the best against the best, not a competitive amateur finalist against social teacher.
  17. Larinda McRaven

    Larinda McRaven Site Moderator Staff Member

    Not at all, at 35 I was still in the final of the pro open....

    And my guys are not leaving to turn pro.... they are leaving to make some under the table money doing taxi pro-am... and some of them are in their 50's and quite happy to have three ladies to dance with at a comp and feel like a stud.
  18. dlgodud

    dlgodud Active Member

    I've seen some pro-am pro who is not a ballroom dancer (WCS teacher) competing in the standard division with his student who is his WCS student after learning or teaching some classes of ballroom dancing, whatever it is.

    So comparing with this story, I am not against of the situation that an am bronze and silver ballroom student who has been dancing for years is doing a pro-am competition as a pro. I personally don't think the WCS teacher is more qualified than the student pro-am teacher.
  19. dlgodud

    dlgodud Active Member

    By the way,
    Hey danceronice!
    You've changed your avatar!!
    Did not recognize it was yours. lol
  20. Firefly2000

    Firefly2000 New Member

    Woah! I am not talking about Blackpool here... America is waay behind the European countries in dance. The pros and amateurs in the US cannot be compared to the European dancers. Actually when the top amateurs move into the pro level they are in the semi final and even the final of pro. Also, lets compare the amount of competitors in american rhythm and smooth. I would say there of about 60 competitors? Being in the final at the age of 35 amongst 30 other couples is not so surprising. Being in the final at the age of 35 when you are competing against the world, thousands of couples, that is something truly amazing. If the only problem is that these students are competing that are in the bronze and silver level have found a way to make some money and enjoy their dancing at the same time, then good for them. At least they are getting the most for their money, as should everyone. This is why my passion for dance is fading, people are only in it for the money. No one cares about the development of dance.

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