Ballroom Dance > NDCA Rule Rescinded: No more amateurs in Pro/am events

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by DanceMentor, Jul 17, 2011.

  1. danceronice

    danceronice Well-Known Member

    OT: Yep. (Heck, I've been double-taking at samina's since she changed hers!) Someone made fan art of my fan fic and did such a nice job I had to use it everywhere--works nicely with the DF color scheme!)

    I'm 32, I don't remember any hill yet...and I'd like to think anything I may have lost physically (which I'll admit is a bit--I break easier than I used to even if I worry about it less) I make up for with increased guile.

    I'm not quite sure how this rule is meant to address getting more men to dance. Ideally, it would allow men who ALREADY danced to make some of the money they've spent on it back. But since there aren't going to be that many women desperate enough to pay full price to dance pro-am with bronze and silver men (at that point, if they're no better than you, you SHOULD just switch to am/am and split the costs as the woman gains nothing but being out on the floor--I certainly wouldn't pay for a lead of my own ability level to dance with me for anything, let alone a competition.) To have any real chance of lasting at pro-am, the man needs to improve his own skills a LOT or have a stable of very low-level women. So I don't see how making a completely broad "you can call yourself an am and still be a pro-am teacher" is going to increase the number of men dancing.
  2. samina

    samina Well-Known Member

    hah, even i was double-taking my own for a few days... :)
  3. Terpsichorean Clod

    Terpsichorean Clod Well-Known Member

    One of Larinda's posts mentioned how she's lost guy students because she trains them so well. We need Larinda to do what she's doing on an industrial scale. More cantskis. :razz:
  4. thedancingdiva

    thedancingdiva New Member

    As a student amatuer competitor who has been competing with another amatuer in the Pro/Am division (since the rule change). Allowing this rule to change back has been in essence deceitful (in my opinion on the NDCA's behalf) Students and amatuer teachers were led to believe that competing against other pro-am students was acceptable. We all know how much of an investment dance can be. I know many students that actually had a competition schedule and made an investment with there amatuers (just as a pro/am student would) on future comps. If it were reversed the students of the professionals would feel the same way. I have to agree with Firefly that it would have opened the door for more competition on the floor in pro/am events. Not every comp is well attended in pro/am. I would think that on the reverse side professionals would welcome more competition on the floor. Now, considered "Mixed Proficiency" and forced to compete on Sunday with little to no competition, is a step back and very unfortunate. :(
  5. TimJ

    TimJ New Member

    Nobody is preventing an Amateur from turning Pro. If you want to do Pro-Am as a Pro then turn Pro. When you move out of your parents house do you get to keep your allowance? If you want to keep your Amateur status and dance as an Amateur then you are an Amateur, if you want to dance as a Pro then nobody is stopping you from turning Pro and dancing as a Pro.
  6. tanya_the_dancer

    tanya_the_dancer Well-Known Member

    It wasn't meant to get guys to dance. It was meant to help already existing amateur couples to finance their dancing with dancing, apparently so that US can have better rankings in am-am world. But because the gender disbalance is so huge, it created an unintended opportunity at lower levels as well. If a studio wants to hire silver level guys to dance in a pro-am competition with (hopefully) lower-level women, then it just highlights the fact that there is an undersupply (or overdemand, depending on how you want to look at it) issue right there. If there were more men interested in dancing and competing, that opportunity wouldn't have existed in the first place.
  7. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    I am not seeing an under supply of professionals AT ALL..I currently know of not one pro who has too many students
  8. loftycat

    loftycat New Member

    One question I'm wondering....are amateur competitors from USADance allowed to teach (like a professional and by this I mean earn income) and not lose their amateur status? In Canada, I know that an exception is made for top 5 or so amateur couples....if I take myself as an example then I wouldn't meet the criteria and therefore I would be breaking a rule as an amateur competitor from Dancesport Canada. How often this happens or whether it's monitored and enforced is another matter but that's the gist of it.
  9. Meagan

    Meagan Active Member

    Obviously this is true but I think it over simplifies things a little bit... For one they wouldn't just be turning pro to dance pro-am, this sort of decision for top ams on if/when to turn pro influences their entire career, which I don't think anyone is denying this is what it is: their career. As discussed in other threads there is a certain amount of posturing that takes place on when to best move into the pro field. And sure you can say its because people want to stay competing against weak competitors or whatever else but its not as though this has only happened once, its clearly a strategy people think about consciously.

    I'm enjoying reading this thread cause as I said previously I dont have a real stake in the issue. But I think its at least helpful to acknowledge the situation for what it is, that amateurs teach for money, do other things for money and that the the division between ams and pros isnt quite what it used to be.
  10. danceronice

    danceronice Well-Known Member

    Yes please! I can say from experience, cantski I would happily pay to dance with! Larinda's gentlemen are a pleasure to follow.

    Then they really ought to decide which is more important, dancing in am or being able to make money in pro-am. That, or they need to lobby for the rule to limit the definition of "teaching amateur" so that the INTENDED dancers benefit.
  11. foxtrotboy

    foxtrotboy New Member

    Yes, they can teach and not lose their amateur status. The USA Dance Rulebook states two ways that would cause a dancer to be considered a Pro: By publicly declaring himself or herself to be a Professional, whether verbally or in writing, or by competing as a Professional.
  12. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    It seems we are on the path to a more scattered system in the United States, for better or worse. That said, in some ways organizations like FADS and AMI have already been separate in many ways. For example, I don't believe I have ever heard of a USA Dance event being held at a Fred Astaire studio. Have you?
  13. etp777

    etp777 Active Member

    Nope. FA studios hold closed comps, and participate in NDCA, but I don't know of any studios that hold anything USADance related. Of coruse, it might happen, but I've never heard of it
  14. Meagan

    Meagan Active Member

    You mean other than USADance hosted/sponsored socials and events right?
  15. star_gazer

    star_gazer Active Member

    Oh yes, I can definitively say that some amateurs will be turning pro not because it is a strategically good time in their career to do so...but because the income from doing ProAm allows them to continue to dance at a high level.
  16. Meagan

    Meagan Active Member

    Sorry my language was unclear. What I meant was turning pro for pro-am would also mean turning pro for one's personal competitions as well not that it wasn't a reason for some people.
  17. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Right, so you have some organizations that benefit from NDCA comps yet don't allow other organizations to participate in their comps, or even have their own panel of judges. I have even heard of judges being objurgated for coaching or judging outside of FADS as well.
  18. tanya_the_dancer

    tanya_the_dancer Well-Known Member

    I'm not seeing this in my area either, but if Larinda's guys are being hired to just dance with ladies at competitions, then there is a local shortage in that area. Otherwise why a studio would do it?
  19. etp777

    etp777 Active Member

    I can't say anything on the judge part, I know the judges we get at our regionals I've seen more than once at regular NDCA competitions overs the years (Charlie and Jeanie Penatello, Tony Dovolani, Ilya and Nadia, etc). Doesn't mean things don't work differently in other regions.

    Could be Meagan, haven't seen them at any of the studios I've frequented or know well in various states. Of course, that's a rather small sampling of the large group of Freds
  20. etp777

    etp777 Active Member

    Oh yeah, can't forget Martin Lamb, who used to judge for us, and was just named to this year's USDSC panel of judges. wooo! :)

Share This Page