Discussion in 'Videos' started by Mladenac, Feb 11, 2011.
Why is Pablo always addressed as a VU disciple?
:sad: Extraordinary footwork, I´m consternated!
There was a time I helt my left hand the way Pablo does, but the further I got deeper into his art I quickly stopped from doing so.
Think (concerning my part) Pablo is kind of style-forming and very influencal. He added a third way of CE besides Salón-V, Milonguero-Apilado. It´s a fusion style, the rather poor and canonical permitted vocabulary of VU-able figures mixed with a trace of Neo-appeal, with an unique sauce of never comprehended ingredients, and finally mixed and stirred up with buskets of joy, and controlled playfulness.
I love Pablo, but lately his posture looks very weird. Previously, when he opened up the embrace with Noelia to do bigger figures he would move his head back; but lately, it seems like he's trying way too hard to keep their heads touching and it looks awkward.
But musicality and energy-wise, he is hard to top!
I find it very tiring tiring to dance with my arm out and up like that. Maybe it's ok for a demo, but if I have to hold it like that for an entire tanda, the leader's going to be holding it up for me by the end.
I would agree with that. He looks like a very clever muppet; worth waiting for her little foot flourish at the end, but his movement doesnt suit the quality of the guitar music, his feet are in the right place at the right time but at other times its like he's just going into a quick sequence of steps that arnt related to the music, goodness I'm being harsh tonight, but she is loveliness incarnate
@ Zoopsia: I did not mean the arm, I meant the open hand. The follower puts her hand loosely on the upwards turned open palm. Sometimes it is a really special and onturning gesture, but I find it a bit too vain, only to copy this habit.
Read the interview with this couple: http://www.eltangauta.com/nota.asp?id=1551&idedicion=0#nota-mas
They were very young when they were given the title of City Salon Tango Champions in 2006. The judges award the title to jumpstart the careers of promising young dancers. They were no exception. They were students of Carlos and Rosa Perez and selected for the Academia de Estilos del Tango where they studied with many of the judges. The video shows them four years later at the ages of 22 and 26.
Last night I happened to view my filming of them during the 2006 championships where I caught her high boleo in the finals. It wasn't permitted by the rules, but the judges didn't seem to notice.
Like many young couples who are on the teaching circuit, they are keeping up with current trends. No embrace, high kicks, and the nuevo look are all part of the marketing package they have to deliver.
This performance no longer qualifies them as salon dancers. If they are teaching this in classes, social dancers should demand their money back.
Let's face it. Their title opens lots of doors for them at festivals.
Evolving in performance is what the market wants.
It requires constant progression and evolution.
They are professional dancers and they find a way how to earn money for living.
It seems that this is not that your preferred style but face it that there different forms of AT.
I noticed that you pick sth you don't like about sb and repeat it all the time,
like that person never anything correctly.
I don't like his embrace and posture now.
There is a couple whose couple I don't like any more, but a teacher they are excellent.
Even better that the most of the Argentinian teacher.
Everybody has its on path.
To me it seems more like commercial exploitation of the dance.
Tango evolved originally by being danced by social dancers
not by what was being danced or taught for commercial gain.
Of course dances are the product of our age
and it seems that for Tango it's VU.
Yes, by manipulating and exploiting the dance.
The El Tangauta interview is rather contradictory.
And as with VU in general, Club Sunderland is used
as some sort of validation of what they do.
Despite what they say, it's the commercial exploitation
of Tango that results in stereotyping and VU seems to be
that stereotype for reasons of visual appeal and thus marketability,
ease of teaching and being less physically and socially challenging.
I gotta agree with Mladenac. Performing has nothing to do with ability to teach. As it happens, I have had a group class before with P&N. I did not enjoy it. It didn't have anything to do with their dance style, more their inexperience as teachers at the time, and the overbooking of the class space.
I have also had classes in social dancing with other "performance tango" dancers, and they were excellent. You just can't tell how good someone will be at teaching until you try to learn from them.
My experience differs considerably from yours then.
If they don't dance it, how can they teach it?
My experience is they teach what they dance
and they dance what they teach, sometimes
on a milonga floor to the detriment of everyone else.
Oh that reminds me, OpenDoor seems to have confirmed that
in the case of this couple, perhaps indirectly.
one of their rare review videos:
Thanks Mladenac, that seems to confirm it well.
Nothing more needs to be said.
Not speaking specifically about the couple in question (as I don't know much about them). There are plenty of people who do performances, who also dance in milongas. Thus some of them do dance it, just not during performances.
To me, this whole argument about performances vs social dancing makes about as much sense, as seeing someone dancing salsa or ballet, and then concluding that they can't do social (salon) tango. Some people really can have more than one skill.
BTW, I also have an appreciation for someone trying to make a living, and making the choice to respect their customers, and give them what they are asking for. There are plenty of business who fail because they decide to give the customer what they believe they need, rather than what the customer is asking for, with money in their hands. If you think the customer is wrong, then you need to know how to explain it to them (and of course, convince them you are right), otherwise you won't make a living from it.
Or watching Barishnikov leap across a stage and conclude that he can't stand at the barre doing class without injuring the person next to him.
Your North American perspective is different to mine. We have some
relatively crowded milongas where VU style can be something of a menace
because dancing (really) small isn't part of the vocabulary.
It seems to me that the idea of tango salon in the US is not necessarily
the same as BsAs. Most video of social dancing even in Club Sunderland
seems to be more the milonguero style of salon and I think Tango Voice
blog refers to that as well.
Yes of course they can have more than one skill.
And that performance was more flamboyant than their teaching video
but nevertheless their teaching is a product of their own VU learning
and competitive dancing.
And you manage to make my point of the dance being taught
being the product of the age. Bear in mind that the customer
didn't know they "wanted" it until they saw it.
Zoopsia and I agreed recently on the detrimental consequences
of strong arms on the chest connection. If you agree that tango
as it became is a physical connection of the bodies to result in
a dance lead from the centre then VU is a commercial negation
of that. Only one teaching couple I know of teaches an embrace
with direct chest connection from the start. Many teachers avoid
discussing the embrace at all and leave it to individual couples
though they might teach a "hold" in VU style.
At least with the internet there's the possibility that anyone with
a questioning mind can find alternative information.
we´ve got more than 19 teaching couples in town
3 argentine: apilado (so called milonguero, hard core, or club style)
1 argentine: half-open (VU)
1 argentine: modern liquido (DNI style)
1 chileno: salón-V
1 german: apilado
1 french: open (Todaro style)
2 german: modern liquido (DNI style)
1 greek: open (Castro´s neo discovery style)
2 uruguayan: avoiding
6 german: avoiding
The couples avoiding to discuss the hold teach hugh classes (more than 40 couples) in
Personally, I don't mind flashy performances. I know a lot of professional tango teachers who can dance very well in a crowded milonga, and can do very impressive and flashy dances when they have the floor to themselves and a captive audience watching. I don't think big performances and good social dancing are mutually exclusive.
I saw little in the teaching video that could be considered a menace socially. When demoing the line of dance is not really an issue. They went up and down the room. Maybe on the same line, but no vast back steps.
There are two main skills needed in terms of movement to dance socially to my mind. To be able to walk forwards well in the line. To be able to turn around each other in your lane without taking too wide a space. That is why molinetes to me though a key skill are really a step toward going toward dancing around each other. Alot of people stop progressing there turns with the classic giro. That limits their ability to dance in really tight spaces.
They used both types of turn alot. You could hardly get a tighter turn than in the vid at 4:36. Few people advocate saying the giro is non social though though it perfectly can be.
Compare to the Ariadna vid with all the soltadas all over the space. How much space is that rubbish. They have done much better displays.
For me their milonga is the best. I would rather a teacher teach and show how to move and change one step or rhythm to meet the music. This they demoed well with speed changes. Any teacher can not be responsible for customers taking step size or direction irresponsibly when in a social setting.
Yes, I have had lessons with them. The explanations were clear. Focus on body movement and the use of energy particarly in circles to contain within couple.
I feel sorry for those dancers in Belgrade who paid for social tango and got a lesson in performing. Pablo and Noelia couldn't dance like that in the downtown milongas of BsAs.
They have no body contact when they dance, so they disregard everything they learned from Carlos and Rosa Perez who know that tango is an embrace. Noelia assumes a submissive head position and both look at the floor -- nothing to pass on to social dancers. But then they aren't social dancers who teach; they are performers selling their style of tango. The fail at teaching the way tango is danced in BsAs.
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