Picking a Pro to do Pro/Am...

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by swan, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Sorry for the condescencion - tho I sincerely believe that a point of view is needed for a discussion to take place.

    As for who cares what anyone really thinks, I respect your thoughts but contrary to you, ("but who cares what anyone else really thinks?") I DO care what people think, and care about others. I believe that people enter into discussions on open public forums like this to hear dissenting opinions. Otherwise, why post? And how can you make up your mind without hearing different points of view?

    That was the basis for MY posts.
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    This points in a very interesting direction. There's a real choice to be made about how to proceed with both learning and performing at the same time. Take for example footwork: to really learn to make full use of the feet initially requires being willing to dance less than full actions while making the inclusion of each phase of the foot action a reliable habit. Dance with someone who wants you to move past each foot at full speed before this is developed and you initially look off balance and pulled off your feet. Learn to keep up with that pressure and you may build an ability to generate the look, without actually learning to use your feet - a situation that leaves a number of otherwise strong-looking dancers (both amateur and pro) stuck a little short of their goals.
  3. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Good point.

    The creation of swing, for instance, requires an equality of ability (or at least equality of movement) or else that also gives that 'thrown around' look.

    Looked at from the other side of the swing, the look of a figure like a telespin (or even a bronze figure like a double reverse) looks very unfinished if the lead not only initiates the action but then completes it.
  4. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Fixing this requires being willing to let it look a little incomplete long enough for the follower to have an opportunity to learn to complete it.
  5. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    I don't have a problem with other points of view at all (as you can see, I had no negative reaction to anyone who posted before you on this thread). I think you're just not getting the fact that your point of view is coming with a highly negative attitude towards what many of us do. And your comments wreak of a holier-than-thou attitude.

    I'm done with this. Really...I shouldn't take the bait every time.
  6. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    isn't the bottom line here the integrity of the intructor/Pro and the degree of dedication of the AM(s)?

    I mean whether you are an AM/AM couple or a PRO/AM couple the degree to which you are going to have real success is not about how well one person fudges it or holds the other person up but how well the instructor (whether a third party/coach or the pro themself) notices and teaches the neccessary improvements and upon how steadfastly the parties integrate this into their dancing ...
  7. saludas

    saludas New Member

    No, there is an old saying unfortunately that says, "It's not the best dancers who wins, but the dancers who look the best".

    This is true in any competitive event. Great athletes have bad days, so they are marked low, even tho their opponents are technically inferior athletes, but looked better on that day.
  8. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    I think what seems so degrading is that the impression that is left is:

    no practice with out a top notch male Am. is possible...no lesson without a top notch male Am is useful...no group without a top notch male Am is useful...no workout without a top notch male Am is important....no woman who dances with a pro can really improve....no pro ever truly wants their Am. to improve...

    I just wonder...have you been hurt, burned, are you in need of a partner...of course those are just rhetorical questions the answers to which are none of my business but I ask them b/c I sense your pain and bitterness and so I am just asking you to reconsider the universality of your scorn for pro/am noting that I do not consider am/am second class, just not as useful to me right now...and not b/c I don't want to be challenged....I never have lesson full of praise ...it is full of hard hard work and the insistance that I improve and no mercy....anyhow, mainly I just want to say that I think improvement is much more about integrity and dedication that about pro/am vs am/am and I hope we can respect our disagreement
  9. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    I SAID truly succeed, NOT win at comps....I know when I am being held up...I can watch the comp tape and see him lifting that arm or whatever....people who want to dance well will not settle for a coach that simply butters their buns
  10. swan

    swan Member

    You ought to read my post very carefully AGAIN....I never said the AM level were close to the pros. I said the gaps between those couples I mentioned were 'narrower' than those who partnered w/ the very very top pro.

    The pros that I mentioned, of course were good dancers, most of which (at least in the standard ones I mentioned) were US reps when they were amateurs! I may not know the latin world of the folks, I do know the standard ones well, and some very well in person. I am also speaking of their current ranking in US & overseas.

    I am not a newbie. And I've done mostly Am/Am, w/ exception of 1 year I did Pro/Am.

    I have pretty good eys in terms of watching comps & judging what the pros (or am for that matter) do.

    Partly what you said is true - the pros should pick good choreography that will match the students' ability & of course, they should not be doing full swing & full power, if the student would be pulled over by them.

    ALL the pros (the good ones at least) will do just that!

    But w/ everyone abiding this same principle, there are some that look much more dynamic & nicer on the floor. Those are the ones I am calling out...

    There are the typical pro/am way of dancing, and there are ways to train your students to dance well & produce good dancing.

    I know some of the Am ladies in the open pro/am, some of them have amateur partners (or had before) & do well on their own to begin with. So please do not insult by overgernalizing. I knew I had not done some pros justice even by my comments & I had to retract, because I knew I was wrong.

    Most pros do work hard to training their students, and it is up to the students to learn and to master. And Fascination, no, the goal of matching your pro is not elusive. That's something to shoot for always. I've said it in another thread. Dream big. Sometimes unreachable goals might motivate you to get closer than what you think you will ever reach. Pros were not born Pros. Good dancers were not born good dancers. Even Beata came out of Pro/Am. W/ some of the board members' opinion, she should have never crawled out of Pro/Am , and let alone become a world amateur champion & blackpool finalist! God Forbid! So there.

    Wow, I must have gotten off the wrong side of bed to be this angry :) It's only 9amPDT here...ha...

    Anyway, I'm not giving Pro/Am any more credit than Am/Am, or Pro/Pro. People choose different paths to advance & improve. Some people see it as career, some others see it as hobby & just have competitive bones in them. Choose the ones you think it's right for you, depends on your time, financial resource, talent, age, etc. There's a place for everyone in the dancesport world.
  11. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    Swan...amen...and thank you
  12. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Glad to see your newly edited post. I read your revisions from yesterday for the first time today.
  13. Medira

    Medira New Member

    Thank you Swan. Your response here has tempered what was sure to be a rather hurt and heated post of my own.

    What I don't understand though, is that throughout all of the threads that have turned into am/am vs. pro/am arguments, is how training with a pro gets completely dismissed as being so far below that of am/am training. Yes, I understand that an amateur partner allows for more practice time that is also cheaper. I understand that an amateur partnership will train with a professional coach. I understand that partnering exclusively with the person you will be competing with is beneficial. I get it. What I don't get, however, is how working pro/am gets tossed out the window as rubbish. If you have the right instructor who is sensitive to your needs and encouraging to help you reach your goals, why wouldn't be a good thing to receive training with that pro, especially when you're still starting? I'd think that a pro would be more in tune with what does and doesn't feel right and, as a result, can give more accurate corrections and suggestions for your improvement. How can this be a bad thing? Could somebody please enlighten me here?
  14. swan

    swan Member

    I haven't edited anything since last night. I edited my very original post pretty much within the hour of the post. Dunno what you're referring to...
  15. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    Swan--think he was referring to MQ's edited post...NO?
  16. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    my only response is "pot, kettle black". I decided not to stoop.
  17. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    Well, for fear of being accused of editing, I, too misunderstood what he was referring to. Glad he cleared it up. I think.
  18. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

  19. saludas

    saludas New Member

    I never saw your updates after the original post, which had a vastly different meaning than it does now.
  20. swan

    swan Member

    The only thing I edited, which I am quite sure was editing ONE couple out because I missed the ranking of the that pro.

    That was ALL I edited.

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