Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by 123N, Oct 25, 2005.
Why are you excluding syllabus dancing?
the overstatement is the "virtually all the movement" phrase and the "deciding when and where" phrase.
in latin and rhythm there is so much open work happening, it's difficult to argue that the leader is creating "virtually' all the movement in the routines.
secondly, there is *extremely* little leading/following in latin/rhythm competitive dancing, so the idea that the leader is deciding when and where is a stretch. it's true that if the leader doesn't do his part, the movement won't happen, but it's also true that the lady takes a tremendous amount of responsibility for her own movement, both in closed positions and in open.
too much, if you ask me!
Well saludas, if the leader is responsible for all movement, why do I impact my partner so much if I get lazy and don't do my part? It's teamwork.
Let me try again...
In a case like the following in which both amateurs are doing things wrong, what is worse?:
am male leading with arm no body for a spin== female pro turns with no problem and balanced
pro male leading great!!== am female spins slower and finished not as balanced
Because it is still lead and follow. if you don't do your part, it means you are not responsive.
So that's why they call it partner dancing and not "man dancing with woman decorating!" :doh:
I was taught in latin/rhythm females are responsible for their own movement, males change their directions or timing (syncopation)
What makes you think there is little lead and follow? I see top couples losing events because there is not enough....
In competitive dancing it's not all lead and follow. Saludas, when I say I don't do my part - I don't mean I don't do what was lead. I'm supposed to do pleanty of "extra" things that simply cannot be lead - but combined with what my partner does, we together create the movement.
Now, in social dancing it's different.
No offense, but you really can't expect a syllabus level dancer to 'have enough together' to do this well. It's really an advanced concept. Like I said, no offense.
The figures in syllabus, for instance, usually look like totally different figures when danced by an open couple... or at least look danced differently...
Sorta - in Latin, for instance, the man might do a forward walk, and you respond, with the expressions that are the woman's 'role', but still, your movement, direction, timing, and speed are determined by the body mechanics of the lead. In other words, your musicality determines how you respond to the movement, but you DO move according to a lead (you certainly don't just run to the next step, unless it is a choreographed 'side by side', and even then you are supposed to look at least like you are taking your cues from the lead).
In Standard, you of course cannot initiate any movement at all, but you could, by body swing, for instance, create momentum, to continue a rotation, for example.
I see. You are not saying male syllabus dancer should not do what you are describing, but that he can't because it is a very difficult level to achieve. Actually I think that a male's good leading skill is more important in syllabus level than open because there are a lot more closed postions in syllabus.
I agree that it's very important to be ADDRESSING lead and follow in syllabus for that reason, because the follow also has a limited training in this area, so the lead/follow (thogh it's pretty 'coarse') is important.
However, you see syllabus Latin danced with virtually no lead/follow all the time. This is because the concepts of foot pressure, etc are only beginning to be comprehended in this arena.
Who's David? I keep reading about him. Any history?
David Oliveri? He is a young amateur whose most recent partner in am/am was Ashlenn Ambanta. He's a good dancer, with a lot of experience. Generally speaking, students who have also had amateur experience with amateur partners tend to do better in pro-am. David is one example. He's pretty solid on the floor. Not too many flashy moves (his teacher, Diana, does the flashy moves), but he is a very good, steady lead. Very nice form.
Edit - Let me explain what I meant above, since it was so very late when I posted it. In their routines, the lady (in this case, Diana) is the one who does the flashy stuff. In other routines of male pro-ams that I watched, it was the guy who did that. It's not that one is better or whatnot, it's just a decision by the student and teacher of who does what. But in the case of David and Diana, it requires an excellent command of balance and timing to support Diana when she does all those fast, complicated moves. David has that, and it shows. It's not easy to handle complicated moves like what they have in their dancing and make it look effortless.
Of course, it doesn't hurt that their routine is (was) the same that he did with his partner, Ashlenn, when they were dancing together, so he was already very experienced with these moves. I have seen Ashlenn dance the same routine with ther teacher, Eddie Ares. She is good, but not as good as David, which may have been a reason why the partnership didn't last. Whenever these two dance against each other, which happens frequently, David usually wins. Unfortunately for David, with the current level of dance by the uber-amateurs out there, he doesn't have much of a chance of ranking high if he went back to dancing pure am. So that may be why he is stuck with pro-am. He may not be the only leader or follower in that situation. That topic is another story entirely.
Jari Muller described Ashlynn as a "little pro". As if she was as good as many of the pros out there. Ashlynn can dance anything and has proven herself against some very stiff competition. I wish I could have seen Ashlynn and David together, but it must have been hard to maintain a partnership with a home base so far from each other. Did he go to work with her or did she go up to work with him? I find these partnerships have a long time to get comfortable when they are so far apart. I wonder if that was an issue.
Seems like we have a lot of arm chair judges in this forum though, so many with knowledge to critique.
I really didn't mean to come across as an armchair judge, in a nasty way. (Though what the heck, being an armchair judge is nothing to apologize for ) Anyway, if I talk about someone, I always try to make it positive and supportive, never sneering. Ashlenn is lovely, and very good. I've watched her many times, in her latin and her standard routines. I have also seen her during her partnerhsip with David. And I have rather strong, clear recollections of these occasions (may be because I watch very carefully). I have no claims on being an expert, though, except what little I learned in over six continuous years of actively watching as many events in as many comps as I can get to - and you'd be amazed at how many these are.
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