Pro Am where Am is the male

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by 123N, Oct 25, 2005.

  1. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Sure, it's always easier to dance with a higher level person. Pehaps someday someone will say that about you!

    Perhaps as you get better, YOU will provide the 'ease' that the better dancer (your paid teacher) gives you, and then you may attract the better amateurs to dance with you. Guess what? Some day, you will HAVE to learn how to do all that PLUS 'worry' about your 'partner'... or you are doomed to be the 'am' payee....

    The harder path in this case will ultimately be the most rewarding.
  2. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    Perhaps someone already HAS said this about him!




    So, my 7-year old daughter who is going to start taking lessons with a (paid) teacher, and perhaps do a pro-am comp next year has to look forward to the "doomed" life of being an am payee?? And you think a little constructive criticism is going to turn a young person away from dancing???
  3. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Actually, this is quoted out of context, and therefore changes the meaning and tone of what I said. Reread my comment and you will see that it is not as 'volatile' as you make it. Perhaps taking 1 phrase out of a sentence is not the best way to discuss the meaning of the whole sentence....
  4. saludas

    saludas New Member

    How terribly mean and defeatist of you!! Your daughter is 'doomed' to be a pro-am student? I certainly hope not!! Why are you so pessimistic and negative - I'm sure that she will get good someday!

    See how quoting and responding out of context changes YOUR words, M? Please play fair LOL...
  5. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    "doomed to being an am payee" in whatever context is negative and degrading...but nothing less than what I've come to expect from your posts. The more I read from you, the more I appreciate my (paid) teacher. Thankfully, I don't judge all am dancers by one who constantly condescends on what others do. And this, from the lowly silver student. Come to think of it, you've never mentioned your level, status, or anything. I must assume that you're a 5-time open level champ. Yes, LET's play fair!
  6. redhead

    redhead New Member

    well I guess I'm doomed to being an am payee for life as well... since I'm an amateur and will keep taking coaching for years to come (and won't teach for money)...
    ans so be it!
  7. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    all of this excludes the possibility that some pros actually will force their ams to dance themselves, to take responsibility for themselves, to stop hanging on them, to stop waiting to be pushed, to stop relying on them to cover up mistakes or to dance down to look compatible ...some pros do want their students to be good dancers in additon to being good customers....and i think it can really hurt the trust neccessary to improve when one who portrays oneself as a well seasoned dancer implies something that seems a bit too absoulute rather than as one possibility of several which may or may not apply to anyone else's specific case...I would hate to see every serious pro am dancer think that what they are doing has no value or wonder about it just b/c one who seems to have more experience than they finds it so likely to be true....just a thought
  8. saludas

    saludas New Member

    I'm all for that!

    Ahenm... now, back to the topic, please....

    Yes it is easier to dance with higher level dancers - 'the worse dancer always has he better time', as someone so astutely put it; but the ease of simply paying someone so much better to dance with you should INSPIRE you to get better, and not just 'settle'. Learn how taking variables out of the dance equation makes other things easier to do, and then go and work on yourself to correct those problems, so that YOU become the 'go to' dancer.

    One of the reasons ams progress faster than proams (tho it FEELS worse doing am/am for so long) is that the problems you encounter in am/am are endemic, and are basic. For instance, when you someday get to open level, you'll find that most of your coaching consists of your coach asking you to do and define syllabus level movements, and you responding 'geez, I can't believe that I didn't 'get this' a long time ago'... so, tho it's fun to get into the more showy aspects, your basics are really more important at this point, and will be for ever.
  9. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Certainly teachers care about their students, and no one is denying that!! And all the elements you mention ('to dance themselves, to take responsibility for themselves, to stop hanging on them, to stop waiting to be pushed, to stop relying on them to cover up mistakes") are learning elements, but really, these are very basic things. In the long path to dance quality, this is very basic stuff, and it is more self-defense on the part of an instructor than anything else at the 1 or 2 year stage. Good dancers have a lot to share with students. Just let's not confuse the fact that they are being paid to do this.

    I've NEVER met astudent who didn't enjoy dancing with a coach. I just find it amusing when they are referred to as 'partners' in the context of partner dance, it's a little misleading). When you go out, do you pay your date to dance with you, do you pay your date to be nice to you? just a thought...
  10. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    When you go out, do you pay your date to dance with you,

    I actually saw this for the first time a couple of weeks ago; before which time I didn't believe it existed.
  11. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    the serious worse dancer doesnt have a better time b/c he/she is striving to be the better dancer silly...and he/she has a good chance of becoming that kind of dancer when dancing with someone who has spent a lifetime teaching dance ...granted, well seasoned ams have this knowlege as well but I have seen some am/am partnershps where one person thinks they have arrived and the other person believes it too and really they are both pretty mediocre and no one is around to fix it....all things can be good or bad
  12. alemana

    alemana New Member

    the history of courtship is basically of the man paying the woman to be nice to him. that's why he picks up the tab. it's also why smart ladies go dutch!
  13. saludas

    saludas New Member

    amen
  14. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    I agree that partner is a word that has to be earned, but it can be a goal...and I am aware of many many nuances that one might ask of a student in order for the "partnership" to be more of a partnership...beyond just saving the pro from injury...once an am can do certain things a pro is free to do more and then an am feels that and can begin to respond and learn those things of higher level and finesse...also, while I pay my pro to dance with me...I do not pay him to be nice to me...and he knows that no matter how angry I get with him, my decision whether to keep paying him or not is not about how good it feels but about results.....measured in ways beyond what you might assume...including my capactiy to dance with a variety of people to other ways in which progress is measured... must go practice now/.....
  15. Dancefever

    Dancefever New Member

    Wow, I went away for a while and Sal has been busy.

    I think one point I haven't made is personal life. Unlike a pro, an am dancer's dancing "is" his/her personal life. I don't think you should do anything but compliment an am's dancing and accomplishments in public. The pro's personal life is off limits here, let's put a perspective on an am's personal life. Since they don't do it for money but for their own "personal" reasons, shouldn't that be off limits as far saying anything even as a side note of what you like or don't like?

    And getting back to the thread, I mentioned David, (not by name at first) because some insinuations were that Pro/Am for the male was harder, the deck was stacked in female's favor, which may or may not be true. I remember when Jeff and Alason Small danced as Amateurs and as pro/ammers. As an amateur couple, they won the Amateur Rhythm National Championships. When Husband and wife competed against each other with Eddie and Ana, Alison always placed ahead of Jeff. I think that shows that there is merit in the fact that the male does have his work cut out for him. I think it is harder for the judges to have this apples and oranges comparison and it just isn't fair. But whomever is on top at the end of the competition, both teacher and student know they have earned it. It doesn't seem that long ago that someone could win pro/am championships with Silver level dancing, but now, pro/am is reaching very high standards and both women and men students in the final have undoubtedly worked very hard to get there. (Not to mention spending a lot of money.)
  16. redhead

    redhead New Member

    I pay my coach to NOT be nice to me (no pain no gain)
  17. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Very nicely put!!

    Just remember that when I said paid to be nice, that does not necessarily mean paid to be sweet or blind. Many folks feel that the nicest thing a coach can be is demanding or stern or such, so in the definition of 'nice' you must include 'being teacherly'. In THAT context, a teacher is NOT nice when they ignore your problems... just a thought on word meanings... remember, to a masochist, cruelty is 'nice'...

    Please, mamboqueen, do not take this paragraph out of context. LOL
  18. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    yes of course....i would nver be that twisted
  19. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    Well, I've never really understood how a judge compares a female am with a male am in a pro/am comp. I'd be curious to hear a judge's take on that.

    As for commenting about what you do and don't like in a dance performance, I guess my thought is that if people put themselves out on the dance floor to be judged, they're going to have comments (good or bad) made, not just by judges; surely I've heard plenty while watching a comp. It's human nature. The difference is that people wrote it on this forum. And it's nothing "personal" about the people, it's about their dancing. If you're out in public performing, people are going to have things to say. I don't really see how it is avoidable...whether there's 3 people talking about it at a table, or a bunch talking about it in a public forum. If the comments made her were 100% praise, would we be having this discussion?
  20. alemana

    alemana New Member


    No, it shouldn't, and no, it isn't. *You* can exercise *your* preference by not discussing them and by not reading threads that do so. But until it's forum policy to the contrary, the type of dialogue contained in this thread is fair game. Not to mention that it has been incredibly fair-minded and mild commentary, as I've said several times.

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