Ballroom Dance > rising on the 1st step of the reverse turn in foxtrot

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by ballroomdancertoo, Mar 21, 2010.

  1. pruthe

    pruthe Member

    In the Divida video, Victor V. discusses how to complete what I would consider the braced knee/leg early rise approach. That's what I'm trying to learn to do myself in Rev/Nat turns.
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    As long as he's being specific about the mechanism of the early rise, it will probably be the sort that is effective vs. the generic sort that is not.

    When talking about this in person, I like to lead a DRS, a chasse reverse, and an open reverse to show how the different usage of the leg in step one (or very nearly step 2 for the last) creates the characteristic rise/travel path of each.
  3. pruthe

    pruthe Member

    OK, I'll bite ... what's the difference in leg usage on step 1 for these figures, if you'd be willing to share. (Don't think I can make your class.)
  4. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    DRS - braced leg to lead heel turn

    Chasse reverse - bend and restraighten knee to create pendulum rise that stalls out with the feet closed (even clearer in waltz reverse which is what I tend to demo, I'm using quickstep names only because thats where all three possibilities are legitimately syllabus)

    Open reverse - bend and stay very down in the knee to create a flatter trajectory that will continue movement and pass the feet, almost feels as if the rise is delayed until 2
  5. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Sorry to have not gotten back to this sooner, but am glad, too, b/c it allowed interesting discussion to go on. This is improtant b/c DM's and Chris' posts support my theory.

    'My', not really mine, suggested method, is this. We agree that the movement of fox is step-swing-recover. In a feather, for ex., the movement/moemntun of the rise on the 2e step creates/allows the free foot to swing past (as mentioned in Chris' post noted below). What happens when one is simply standing, say in front of you, and you push that person? They place one foot back to catch themselves, of course, and the other foot, what?... closes to regain balance. This is the concept of heel turn.

    Rise, esp. an early rise, will cause the lady's free foot to swing past the weighted one. The secret about rise, IMO, is to use BR/NFR (as evidenced in DM's post noted below). I was taught to lower, and "w/o" CBM (again, as noted by Chris below), set the lady off balance. As in the standing ex. above, she instinctively brings the other foot underneath. The lower prohibits it from swinging past. The man dances in a straight line past the lady creating the heel turn as her feet reach position. Because the man is on an inside edge and rotating to face the lady, rise on his right foot is abated, and this is why there is no real rise in heel turn (a very, very common error). As the man releases the heel turn (weights his right foot), the lady has the step specific characteristic of rising to the balls of the feet but with the rise taken up in the knees (held together, obviously), and subsequently toe/lower of the third step happens as she drives out of the heel turn.

    This is exactly what is desired. .. not to have her back weighted, but to have her close too soon because we have intentionally set her off balance. Closing too soon is what stops the swing; not an early rise. If the step is done correctly, she is not back weighted, but completely over her feet as she/we regains/corrects her balance.

    Yeah, if it is the JH that I am thinking, we have laughed about that, b/c she heard me saying that once, also. :)

    Exactly! A BR/NFR rise would be the correct application according to what Josh has called 'my theory'... just lightening the mood. ;)

    supportive, or at least in line w/ my thinking above.
  6. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Hmm... some interesting things to think about.

    However I have my doubts about the shove & close to recover - this would only seem to work with an impulsive push that is then retracted. Heel turns of a sort probably can be created that way, but I would like a more continuous and sustained lead that is followed through, and that says to me that we need a trajectory that lets the body continue while the free foot stops. For me, that's specifically arriving (rising) onto a straight leg and letting the turn continue the travel to a small degree until the exit can resume obvious travel.
  7. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Thanks for thinking about it. I usually just get blasted until one tries it. Then they think about it. :D

    Not sure what you mean about shove, close to recover, though. I agree that the movement should be very smoothly sustained and followed through to the crest of the trajectory.
  8. pruthe

    pruthe Member

    My current feeling is that braced leg early rise approach that has been discussed would cause a neutralizing effect for the swinging leg such that lady would not swing through during heel turn. Don't quite understand how off-balance approach works. Would probably have to see to fully understand. Good discussion though.
  9. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I guess I'm guilty of responding to what I thought your description would have to imply to work rather than what it literally said.

    My question is if the lady responds to this push first by driving off her standing foot, or if she more passively starts to fall (tip) over backwards and uses the leg to catch herself.

    If you use a "punchy" movement you can probably get her to tip and catch into an on the spot turn, but it sounds like we agree in disliking the feel of that.

    If on the other hand you use a smooth drive and she responds by driving her hip back off her standing foot, so that she does not tip over but maintains her usual poise, then we seem to have the problem of what is going to cause the next step to merely swing closed, rather than continue.

    For me, its the lady matching the man's braced leg, which causes a kind of body rise that makes the leg swing loose its energy as it comes under the body.

    But I'm not really seeing what in your description would trap the leg, other than a tippy-ness of a more passive entry.
  10. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Yea, good discussion. Sometimes these discussions get "deep". :) I would love to see some videos used to add to the conversation, as it helps us pickup at different points without reading everything that was discussed. Have a look here starting around 0:10. Then also look around 0:38. It appears she does not get the heel down as well as the first one, and I would say the reason is he turned early. What do you think?
    (or was it perfect because they were the World Champions?!) :D
    Looks to me like he rises on 2 and she closes on 3 (approximately)
  11. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Now around 0:38 of this video is a very nice Reverse turn demonstration. Unlike some of the other videos where they have a small floor and reduce the turn, this one has the right amount of turn. I would have to say the rise is a little slower (music is slower too), and also you can clearly see the softening of of Luca's right leg, and also see Lorraine clearly reading the turn and turning slightly on step 1 of the reverse. I think it is next to impossible to get the right amount if the lady steps just straight back.

  12. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Mirko & Alessia don't seem to be having any trouble getting the right amount of turn ( 3/8 ) using classic straight cbm technique. Luca is doing a reverse wave which has overturning to 1/2 as he does as an official choice, however even for that curving into one is not needed.

    I'm not quite sure where in the reverse turn you are referring to softening of the man's right leg? Luca's left is not as straight as Mirko's, but its clearly straighter than it is on his non heel turns, and is only one of many general differences in how they choose to carry their bodies.
  13. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Agree w/ this. Re my previous posts, it is this slight turning of the lady's step (1) that I am referring to as being slightly off balance. I believe the specific question/confusion is in the early rise. As posted before, and as I see in this vid, if the early rise that one refers to is BR/NFR, body rise to follow, I have no contention, and am basically saying the same thing in different terms.
  14. pruthe

    pruthe Member

    Here's one of my favorite Foxtrot videos.


    Lots of heel turns in here. Perhaps you can pick up the technique used at various points. I'm still thinking about how things are done.

  15. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    Sometimes I learn more from watching than trying to put it into words. Some people at the time felt Sinkinson and partner's Foxtrot was the best ever, and still very powerful even now. I see little less stretch of the sides compared with some of the dancer's today, but the timing and continuity are fabulous.

    (I said "and partner because he had at least 2 exceptional partners that know of)

    Around 0:35 I love the first step of the reverse turn (his left). You can see a clear rolling through the foot (possibly like no other). It's amazing how much he uses the whole foot from the back of the heel to the tip of the toe.
  16. contracheck

    contracheck New Member

    Some coaches, notably Veryasset, say that first you torque your body to the left with the standing leg (i.e., the right leg), followed by rising up as if you are trying to zip up a body suit.
  17. DanceMentor

    DanceMentor Administrator

    I like that description. In the last video it does seem Sinkinson is to the left and doing just that (zipping up).
  18. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    It might be useful to think about the difference between

    -body rotation
    -frame rotation
    -standing knee rotation
    -moving foot rotation
    -sideways displacement of moving foot
  19. contracheck

    contracheck New Member

    We have been told that a rotation has an axis while a turn does not. Does it make a sense?
  20. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    You have to be careful with component definitions like that, because many of these actions "aren't allowed" to occur in isolation.

    For example, its a usual rule that travel must dominate rotation such that no part of the body (such as the left elbow) may move against the direction of travel - which means that you ordinarily must not rotate around an axis inside the body, unless you cary that axis with you in the travel.

    (let me restate the example for clarity: when commencing a forward reverse turn you right elbow may overtake your left, but your left is not permitted to move backwards - you must have more travel than rotation in order to prevent this)

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