rising on the 1st step of the reverse turn in foxtrot

Discussion in 'Ballroom Dance' started by ballroomdancertoo, Mar 21, 2010.

  1. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    I think the problem after 0:38 is that the gentleman rose too early in the way that Angel_HI seems to disapprove of.

    With regard to the turn, I think the issue is that there is early rotation of the hold after 0:10 which puts the lady into the correct relative body position before her right foot lands. After 0:38, the rotation of the hold is later, as the lady's foot lands, and as a result causes the lady incorrectly to do much of the turn on the toe rather than on the heel.
  2. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Do you feel the arriving heel should lower before the turn then?

    What would the timing of this be in relation to the closing of the other leg?
  3. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    Okay, before answering this, I should probably post on the original topic.

    When I lead a heel turn properly, I focus on what the lady is doing, so I don't actually know exactly what my own rise is. However, the last incarnation of this thread convinced me that there might be different correct ways to lead a heel turn depending on the height differences between the partners. I don't remember the details of why I thought that, though.

    To a first approximation, I think the arriving heel should lower before the turn, as the heel turn is a turn on the heel. I think there might be some minimal turn on the toe before the heel comes down, but it would be a second order effect to provide continuity.

    I think the heel should touch the floor as the opposite heel closes to that heel, with the bulk of the heel turn done on the one supporting heel but with both feet blocked together and flat to the floor. Note that this is different from what I like when the opposite foot passes, where I think the heel should not touch the floor until the opposite toe passes that heel.
  4. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    Sinkinson only won the foxtrot at the British Open with Lorraine.
  5. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Another example of what I was referring to by setting the lady slightly off balance to create the feeling of needing to bring the feet together.

    And, as if this thread isn't complicated enough, there's this. the trend of setting the body back onto the heels is popular in some circles, yet a query at best. Many take the term heel turn to be a wee misnomer, as the body is not technically back onto the heels, but merely towards the heels from center (its normal forward posture over the middle of the feet), much as the body really isn't over the toes in a toe pivot, or spin. Thoughts?
  6. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    In real terms, the turn should commence on the Ball of the supporting leg( with the heel lowered ) , and the weight distribution then becomes a combined action,between ball and heel;after the transference to heel,the weight should return to a neutral position momentarily over both feet before the weight change to the new suppporting leg takes place.

    Many ladies tend to " sit " on the heels for an overdue amount of time ( causing the toe "lift " ), instead of preparing for straightening and compression on the legs, that should occur before the Forward step is taken, this should slightly alter the " pitch " for lady .

    And yes, the heel of the opposing leg/ foot, is lowered as the turn commences ,and should be in a parallel position before the turn is completed .


    One other point.. P. Egg. suggestion of minimising the CBM on a Rev. turn
  7. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Sorry.. I missed this before I posted... have been " singing " this song for yrs !!
  8. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I believe reference to heels and toes is often to the part of foot where weight pressure is transferred to the floor, which in the short term is not necessarily under the position of the body.

    But on the other hand, the mention of heel or toe in footwork does not necessarily mean weight will be on that part of the foot for the entire period of time that the designation is in effect.
  9. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member


    Yes, true.. but also to mean that it is the FIRST part of the foot that makes contact with the floor, and a moving leg/ foot has no weight. If we then extrapolate the next " action,then hopefully, the body is continuing to move, and in so doing ,the weight is being transfered along the foot to a required/ desired position .
  10. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    I pretty much agree with all of that, though I think that realistically, the turn will start commencing before the heel comes down.

    While I think the bulk of the turn occurs with the weight on the heel and the feet flat, I do agree that spending an excessive amount of time with the weight on the heel is undesirable. In a beautifully executed heel turn, there will be a large amount of turn during the brief moment while the weight is on the heel.
  11. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Yes. Exactly my point, as you did note. Nice to see you, BTW.
  12. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    I think of that part of the problem being that even on the inside of the turn one can't really turn on a fixed axis with interrupting the flow of the dance. So I'd like to have the knees coming forward as the turn concludes to blend it into forward movement.

    Often when initially trying this there is a bit of a pause with the weight rocked back on the heels before the knees bring it forward - I believe the goal should be to eliminate that by maintaining a slight sense of travel through the turn.
  13. tangotime

    tangotime Well-Known Member

    Exactly...
  14. Josh

    Josh Active Member

    I think that the rolling through the feet from TH of the moving foot to HT of the closing foot is key to maintaining a smooth transition out of the heel turn in the way you describe here.
  15. contracheck

    contracheck New Member

    I think that Luca is doing the Extened Reverse Wave, but they do it incorrectly. In the Extended Wave the lady is supposed to go outside but Lorraine does it in-line, in fact, every time I watched them. Luca is doing the right shoulder lead in slim body line to invite her to go out side, but she steps smack right between his feet in all of her fox trots I've watched. Anyone has any comment?
  16. Angel HI

    Angel HI Well-Known Member

    Good post. Or, maybe I believe it to be good b/c it concurs w/ my earlier one. :rolleyes:
  17. pruthe

    pruthe Member

    It's my understanding that dancing a reverse wave totally inline is an optional (open) way to do so, as lead by the man. Don't think it is a choice that the lady makes to dance inline. (Sorry if a bit off topic - rising on 1st step of rev. turn.)
  18. Warren J. Dew

    Warren J. Dew Well-Known Member

    I'm not a big fan of Luca's dancing, but I do not think they are making such a basic mistake. If you look at Luca's hips, he is not opening the right hip in the same way as he takes his shoulder lead, so he's not actually leading Lorraine outside; I think she's properly following him going inside. I would guess that the shoulder lead is probably an attempt to make a bigger top.
  19. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    So on a slight diversion, I've recently been noticing that on a number of demo videos, famous guys are letting their toes rock up during the impetus. This is of course a natural heel turn and danced lower in the legs than the lady's heel turns are.
  20. contracheck

    contracheck New Member

    In the Extended Reverse Wave, I spent a lot of time, money and effort to learn how to make the lady take outside partner steps, but you folks are now telling me that it is OK for the lady to take the in-line step. I should have known it long ago.

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