Tango Vals

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by bordertangoman, May 8, 2009.

  1. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    And so long as people are handing over their money freely and voluntarily to watch these stage performances, who cares?!?! Of course, you and I and plenty of other people know it doesn't get to the heart of why we dance. But, like you said, people who don't dance (and who probably don't have any interest in learning) will be impressed by any dance at all. Who cares?! It's entertainment, yes, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    If people see an AT performance and are drawn in enough--by WHATEVER--to start learning "real" AT, things will sort themselves out. But there's got to be something which draws people in, and glitzy and showy works...particularly for people who don't have enough understanding to appeciate the finer points. But there's got to be a hook. Once they get in, they'll learn the subtlety soon enough.

    I suppose this could be turned into a thread on "is show tango real tango or not," but I'm pretty sure we have a thread on that already. I'm guessing I know your answer anyhow (no), and you can probably guess at mine (depends, but usually yes).
     
  2. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I'm digressing on m y own thread. DOH!

    BOT back to the original question what differentiates tango from Vals (in your dancing)
     
  3. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    As a follower, I don't feel (yet?) like I have enough say in the dance to really differentiate tango from vals. I still feel like a lot of that difference is dependent on how the men lead things; if they're leading it like a tango, I 'm not really sure how to turn it into a vals.

    For myself, though, what I try to do is make it softer and more flowing. If I can, I like to add a *little* bit of rise and fall into things, just to add another dynamic. I like to try to build, hold and release energy whenever I can.

    What I like to see/feel with vals is more constant motion (less dramatic pauses), more circular figures, softer movements, and leading that is more attuned to the melody than the beat.

    I would be interested in hearing from other followers as to how they feel they can influence a dance to be more vals-like, than tango-like, if you're not feeling it from the lead.
     
  4. jantango

    jantango Active Member


    Some???? I can count on one hand the number who teach social tango abroad. The rest are teaching their choreography. I draw my conclusion from their exhibitions videos. If they are teaching social in class and then perform for stage, they are defeating the purpose of teaching. They should be showing how they dance for the milonga. Those who go to classes are there to become better social dancers.

    Vals and tango are two different dances. The music of vals is written in 3/4 time, tango is in 2/4 or 4/8 time. That sets them apart. Are waltz and foxtrot the same? No, for the same reason--the music. Vals has more turns than tango. It's a different feeling, of course. It begins with the dancer knowing the music and expressing the way he is inspired by it.
     
  5. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    They are watching show tango. No need to use judgmental wording to make your points.

    You are basing your arguments on the premise that you know what people want to watch and do and that they are clueless morons. All kinds of public will go to a show tango performance. Those that research will know about the social tango and the differences, etc. People generally will pay for entertainment, nothing wrong with that.

    One needs to immerse oneself in tango to start to understand the music and the dance. There's nothing wrong with that, but believing that that's what tourists want is naive. Dancers understand you but you need to realize that not everybody wants and likes what you value.
     
  6. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    so you are saying in effect that either the steps in tango are the same or they are not? Waltz and Foxtrot are stepped differently. I do lots of turns in vals but many other people I see do not. My first introduction to vals was that you are using the same steps as tango, but larger more open and flowing. I do understand the difference in musical time. When people dance waltz they all same to move around the room at the same speed but in milongas even if there is space, many people (in the uk) seem to dance as if they are in a tightly packed milonga. Is the Club Espanol video a good example?
     
  7. shutterbox

    shutterbox New Member

    I think there are no "steps" in tango argentino. I see steps as preferences by individuals to move themselves accordingly to the music. Eg, teachers show you some "steps" they use and play a music and show you how they put their steps into the music. I felt its one of the easier way to teach becos they teach a "template" and then tell you where the "template" could be used.

    However I think the only thing that puts vals from tango and milonga is probably its PRaT (Pace, Rhythm and Timing). Once one gets this distinct differentiation, there is less issue with dancing it big or not.
     
  8. bafonso

    bafonso New Member

    The reason people dance smaller to milonga is that it allows you to do faster and staccato moves with elegance.
     
  9. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I understand what you are saying but its a bit paradoxical. You move your feet and legs; what else would you call other than a step?
     
  10. shutterbox

    shutterbox New Member


    Sorry, I should use the word "sequence" instead of "steps".
     
  11. jantango

    jantango Active Member

    Vals and Tango are two different dances because the music is different. If you base this on what you learned in International ballroom instruction, you will get into analyzing steps. One should dance vals as the music inspires them rather than copying others. Better to be a first rate version of yourself than a second rate version of someone else.

    I don't know the Club Espanol video to which you refer. Watch other videos on YouTube of the milongas in Buenos Aires. Then dance what you feel. The music tells you what to do. If you don't dance your dance, who will?
     
  12. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    I couldnt find an emoticon with tape across its mouth!

    meaning I'll shut up now. :)
     
  13. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    Secrets of a writing maniac

    Little story by the way. Recently I was posting in an Austrian danceforum. I found a thread started by a woman that recently started over with tango coming from the BR world. After her second class she heard a DJ putting together pieces for an upcoming milonga. She asked him for the name of an argentinian waltz that sounded familiar in her ears. She found that it was very close to, if not identical, with a know viennese song called "Wenn der Herrgott net will.." (If God does not want)


    "Wenn der Herrgott net will" sung by Hans Moser http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46P7wpG52Kg

    "Tú y Yo" sung by Roberto Maida http://wmp11en.farolatino.com/browse.do?dispatch=requestDetalle&articuloId=58695

    Link to Franscisco Canaro´s discographie (see 1935) http://sites.google.com/site/franci...in-chronological-order/electric-recordings-II

    Link to Ernst Arnold´s discographie (see 1934) http://www.bosworth.at/deutsch/ErnstArnold.html

    english translation of "Wenn der Herrgott" http://myweb.dal.ca/waue/Trans/Wien-Herrgott.html

    letras of "Tú y Yo" http://www.pasiontango.net/es/letras.aspx?cancion=tu-y-yo

    There is also an instrumental by Anton Karas (Harry Lime Theme) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDnZNEJVnw

    ;)
     
  14. poetas 84

    poetas 84 New Member

    Has anyone seen Alberto Dassieu and Elba Biscay's video dancing 'Valsecito Criolo" at Glorias Argentinas.If yes ,what do you think about it ?I can not upload the address because DF doesn't allow me to do it
     
  15. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Is this the one?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orgGazxNz64

    It appeals to me very much. She looks like a dream to dance with.
     
  16. rain_dog

    rain_dog Member

    While he does many things well, I just can't get past what I think is pretty awful posture. Because he's hunched over and not projecting from his core, there are times where he looks like he's crowding the follower and forcing her back on her heels. I say this solely from watching videos of him and not knowing what he's actually like to dance with, but honestly it doesn't look like it'd be very comfortable for the follower. All in my opinion, of course.
     
  17. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Sometimes, posture that looks bad, can be very comfortable (if not enjoyable). It really depends on the two people involved.
     
  18. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Yep. This actually looks a little bit like my first teacher's preferred CE style. Very strong forward presence, but allows for internal movement. The leader can flex the embrace and change the angle of inclination to allow the follower freedom in her hips, and doesn't always have to lead crossing ochos. The projection is still from the core, just higher.
     
  19. gyb

    gyb New Member

    I had the pleasure to attend four workshops of Alberto over the years and have seen him dancing in many milongas. The women I know well from my community melted after dancing with him - his embrace and lead was hailed as exceptional (with a possible complaint about the occasional use of his right hand which not everyone took well). Apparently his posture allows him to have a dynamics with large acceleration and deceleration while staying perfectly comfortable and non-pushy. He is one of the few old-era VU style dancers who keep a CE most of the time.

    He is the type of guy whose personality fills the room once he enters; very interesting experience. Practimilonguero has a long interview with him, it's worthwhile to watch.
     
  20. Peaches

    Peaches Well-Known Member

    Oh...beautiful!!! Love his musicality--the smoothness, the changes in tempo, everything! *bookmarking that video as one of my favorites!*

    I didn't see anything untoward with his posture...
     

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