Swing Discussion Boards > Texas Tommy Swing

Discussion in 'Swing Discussion Boards' started by Spitfire, Jul 1, 2003.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If someone does not care about the early 1900's
    when trying to learn the 1920's Lindy Hop roots,
    why would someone care to learn about the 1950's
    which are also roots of Lindy Hop in 2000?

  2. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    Eulogizing Hollywood Swing Era 1950's

    The Hollywood of the 1950's, in case you haven't heard, along with the Hell's A Poppin Savoy 1930's era, was the 'Golden Age' of Swing when and where most of your great Swing movies were made. And according to Terry Monaghan, one of the most esteemed Lindy Historians, the 1957 Columbia film, 'Don 't Knock the Rock' STARTED the Lindy/Swing craze in Europe in the mid 1980's. How do I know this fact? because in 2001 Terry ended an 8 year search to find me, the dancer that did the Back Summersault in the Bill Haley scene 'Rip it Up'. And told me in person, the phenomenal affect this one single 1950's film had on the European Continent in reviving the Lindy/Swing craze.
    If helping to revive the Lindy/Swing craze after some 20 years in the doldrums, isn't enough reason for eulogizing the Hollywood of the 1950's, nothing is!
    Black Sheep, 'Good Questions, often Get Good Answers' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.
  3. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Jjoe let me explain something to you... I'll use short sentences and stay to the point so you CAN't misunderstand or misinterpret my point...

    I did not start this thread.
    I did not revive this thread.
    My reputation is what it is.
    It has nothing to do with the Texas Tommy Swing.
    I have cited my sources, you have simply ignored them.
    The history of anything is based on what came before.
    We have no one's word but your own that Terry ever said this.
    Terry cited one of Mama Lu Park's dancer's as being responsible for lindy hop in Europe.
    Yet no one has challenged you on this.
    Every source but you cites that the 40's were the highpoint of Swing music and dancing in America.
    With the decline of big bands and the rise of rock rand roll groups (which like Haley decidely DO NOT SWING), calling the 50's the golden era of swing dancing is shall we say "questionable".

    Lastly... no one forces you to read this thread, let alone post on it. If you don't like it and have nothing to contribute to the discussion, you are of course welcome to simply not read the thread. Not to hard is it?
  4. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member


    History Buffs,
    If anyone reading my commentaries thinks I am naive enough to make a statement without having varifiable proof, than just ask me for the verification like D'nice asked about the Terry Monaghan stastement quoted below:
    "And according to Terry Monaghan, one of the most esteemed Lindy Historians, the 1957 Columbia film, 'Don 't Knock the Rock' STARTED the Lindy/Swing craze in Europe in the mid 1980's. How do I know this fact? because in 2001 Terry ended an 8 year search to find me, the dancer that did the Back Summersault and the Jumping Jack in the Bill Haley scene 'Rip it Up'. And (Terry) told me in person, the phenomenal affect this one single 1950's film had on the European Continent in reviving the Lindy/Swing craze" (that spread around the world).
    VERIFICATION: Email above Quote for Terry's verification:
    Black Sheep "Ask and ye shall Receive" Jesus
  5. simon

    simon New Member

    Dear Black Sheep,

    The Texas Tommy I'm talking about is of course not a "red neck square dance" done by white people from Texas as you suggest.

    It is an Afro-American swing dance done by black Americans in California's Barbary Coast around 1910 as you could have discovered if you bothered to read for example the website for the November 7-8-9 Swing Weekend at http://www.dancing.org/w/

    Information about the swing dance Texas Tommy is also mentioned by "d nice" above in this thread - including the streetswing website (and I'm not suggesting everything in streetswing is reliable or accurate, but they've got quite a few things right).

    Also, it appears that there is a direct and unbroken line of development from 1910 Texas Tommy to 1927 Lindy Hop and quite a bit of similarity. Texas Tommy appears to have been brought to New York by Afro-American Texas Tommy dancers from California in the ealy 1910s. My source for this information is Richard Powers.

    Anyway, why don't you just come to the weekend and find out what Richard will say and teach - I promise he and Angela will be teaching swing and blues (not square dances, red neck or otherwise), and that the quality of instruction will be excellent, and the historical dance research very solid and thorough.

  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Verification

    I would appreciate some verification of your arguement in this thread, supported by multiple sources, if you have the time. Thanks in advance!

  7. simon

    simon New Member

    Dear Black Sheep,

    So that's you in the Rip It Up sequence!

    You are infinitely more enlightening in that film than your comments on Texas Tommy have been in this thread!

    Is there a thread about the Rip It Up sequence? - I'd like to read what you have to say about that.

    Best regards,
  8. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    Rip Up Sequence

    There is the inside story under the thread, 'Don't Knock the Rock', on this Library forum. Check my website for additional photos and excerpts; <WWW.LINDYBYLANZA.COM>

    And D'nice, you are the one who is WRONG when you stated the Mash Potatoes included the Charleston Kick. I taught the Mashed Potatoes to 49 Jr. high schools in the L. A. Unified School District from 1959 to 1963 when the Mashed Potatoes originated. You may do the Charleston Kick NOW as the Mashed Potatoes, but we NEVER did it in the original form.

    VERIFICATION: I WROTE the only book describing those novelty dances of the 1960's, starting with the Twist and including a clear description of the Mashed Potatoes, plus I have a copy of Luella Parson's syndicated Hollywood Column where she paragraphs Joe Lanza's novelty book mentioning the Mashed Potatoes in 1962. I still have 3 original copies left of, 'Novelty Dances', pub. 1962.

    And as for the Texas Tommy Swing, how are we going to be assured that what dance structure D'nice comes up with for the TTS isn't JUST a CONTRIVED dance to 'resemble' the Lindy? Does he have a structural description from the 1906 San Francisco article including, rhythm, styling and footwork patterns, etc.? How about posting them now with the documented 'SOURCES and DATES of this TTS so that we can analyze and interpret the dance for ourselves? Or is this a big secret among the esteemed elite?
    Black Sheep 'History is often written by the WRONG people' Joe Lanza 2003
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Rip Up Sequence

    You can be assured by reading the books and watching the videos he's posted already in this thread.

    Do you have some books or videos to share?

  10. Swing Kitten

    Swing Kitten New Member


    D nice has nothing to gain by arbitrarily contradicting you. He does not need to bolster himself up... generally, I've noticed, he has not taken advantage of opportunities to do so... this is something I find admirable. He seems very much motivated by his pursuit of accuracy... thus the disagreements. :wink:

    Alright, I'm sure I' not the only one who is sick of this broken record! You incecently call for sources ( which D nice has consistantly provided ) then proceed to ignore them.

    here they are (just from this very short thread)
    books with independant publishers
    Simon provided us with this link:

    To make it EVEN easier... here is what it says in regards to Texas Tommy Swing

    SOURCES!! READ THEM!! What else could you possibly want!! Even if you can't admit you were wrong about this, can you at least drop it?
  11. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member

    Re: Authenticity

    Swing Kitten,
    How many times has your admired esteemed friend rained on my parade, mis quoted me, distorted my COMMENTARIES and just recently incorrectly stated I was WRONG about the Mashed Potatoes?
    I notice FunkyFreak and you are ardent supporters of the smoke screens your esteemed moderator throws up.
    I asked for a simple description of the TTS to decide for myself. I have read too many books to know that authors have their own agenda's. I am not WRONG as you suggest. I want to see the description on this post, just like I gave detailed descriptions of my MAGIC PILL. I did not tell people to buy my 'Lindy by Lanza' book which describes the Magic Pill teaching method. It takes me about thirty minutes to write these Commentaries. That is all the discretionary time I have for these repartees.
    Black Sheep 'Don't believe everything you read'. Joe Lanza 2003 a. d.
  12. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    Obviously that's too much to ask Swing Kitten. :(

    Couldn't agree more with this most recent tag line Joe...which is why no one here is willing to believe your version just because you tell us we should. d'nice has provided numerous references to independently published works. If you don't want to take the time to track them down in a local library that's fine...and your business. But to then come back here and claim he hasn't provided evidence is nothing more then a blatant avoidance of reality.

    Hypocritical much here Joe? You're the only one who seems to think this thread is a waste but, low and behold, guess who keeps posting away...
  13. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Re: Rip Up Sequence

  14. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Re: Rip Up Sequence

    Wow, you told me Joe. I guess I can ignore the words of the dancers from the era who did both dances. I guess I can ignore the Labanotation models cronstructed and the resulting studies concerning the Charleston and the Mashed Potatos by kinesiologists, ethno-musicologists and dance historians.

    Because you wrote a book, which you published yourself, and was then quoted by someone else. That is so obviousely better than my sources.

    Actually I guess I'm just not that intelligent, but could you tell us who invented the mashed potato? Where it came from? When it was first danced? When it was first taught in dance studios?


    Actually since we have wandered on to a tangent for a second, Let me clarify something from my previous post... it is the Charleston that is descendant of an African dance step, the Mashed Potato and the Kick Step that are descendants of it. Do you even know the Kick Step? When it was danced, who popularized it? What was the first film it could be seen in?
  15. Swing Kitten

    Swing Kitten New Member

    Re: Authenticity

    I have yet to see him mis quote you-- maybe misinterperate... which in this medium, anyone could do (and in those instances he was not the only person to do so)-- but never mis quote. And the last I checked it's not wrong to disagree... even if it means raining on your parade.

    How often are 'smoke screens' supported with more proof than what they are hiding? If D nice said something that I did not agree with or that I knew or highly suspected to be false I would not back him up on that! I have my own brain thank you! Yes, d nice has my trust... and do you know why? He's EARNED it! He has earned it by being consistantly knowledgeable and professional. He provides sources (this we know) and demonstrates logic in his thinking.

    Interesting... is that you have read too many books or is that you have written too many books to know that authors have their own agenda?

    I wouldn't expect you to agree that you are wrong-- it is clear that you do not think so.

    Could someone buy this book even if they wanted to? I just searched amazon.com with no results.

    I couldn't agree more.
  16. SwinginBoo

    SwinginBoo New Member

    You go girl! :D
  17. Black Sheep

    Black Sheep New Member


    TTS Believers,
    When someone offers 2 film clips supposedly produced in 1910 where sound and color are missing as proof of a dance...give me a break!
    I just want substantial evidence that holds up in the real world.
    Now let me share with you the REAL origin of Swing Dancing:
    Most dances, the Samba, Tango, and Nonna Peppa's Tarantella, started among the peasants, the economically improvised segments of society.
    And the Lindy's origin was no different; it was started in New Orleans as a Funeral Processional March. Negro's were hired to escort the funeral procession to the grave yards playing their music, and of course the music was the original jazz. It was just natural for those New Orleans processional marchers, who were paid to accompany the funeral processions, to throw in some fancey syncopated footwork while marching to the music.
    Eventually they embellished their dance moves and created the Lindy which was transported to New York along with the New Orleans Jazz Music and ended up in the Savoy Ballroom where it was honed into the form that Frankie dances.
    Now you have Frankie Manning who is old enough to one way or another corroborate this New Orleans origin or not.
    However, it is possible that from New Orleans the Texas Tommy was also transported to San Francisco.
    I do not doubt there was a dance called the Texas Tommy Swing, but IF this TTS is what yo all's saying it is, then it must have come from the Motherland of Jazz, New Orleans! That's logic, that makes sense! That's a hell of a lot more acceptable of a scenario as the origin of Lindy, than those 2 Black & White Film Clips WITHOUT SOUND! How did anybody ever manage to count to 8 without sound? Two 1910 film clips...in Black and White...with no sound! No wonder Arnold got elected!
    Black Sheep 'People often believe without Questioning' Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.
  18. HepcatBob

    HepcatBob New Member

    Unfortunately, Joe, it's impossible to provide a film clip from 1910 with either sound or color. Neither had been invented at that point in time. Personally, I would like to see actual proof that the Lindy DID start in New Orleans as you just claimed. Can you provide such proof?
  19. d nice

    d nice New Member

    Joe... provide me with some evidence citing N.O. as the birth place of lindy hop.

    While you are at it... why not provide counter evidence to Stoddard's claims about the birthplace of jazz. Give me some locations, some band names, some locations, dates.
  20. Swing Kitten

    Swing Kitten New Member

    In Technicolor please! :D

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