Tango Argentino > Toe leads for every step for the man?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by LordBallroom, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. LadyLeader

    LadyLeader Active Member

    Three legs on the ground in caminata?
  2. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

  3. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

    Where on earth did you receive your dance training?
  4. Steve Pastor

    Steve Pastor Moderator Staff Member

    If you find yourself in a crowded milonga, a really crowded milonga, you will find that the opportunity to take more than one step in any direction will be severely restricted. "Pausing" and dancing in place become very important in those conditions. Changing weight, and leading weight changes without changing weight yourself become an important tool. To do that successfully it's very helpful to a good grasp of the "weight change," and how it is related to your torso. (And "balancing" on one foot while the other touches the floor without any weight!) I was fortunate (I've written this before!) to be at the right time and place to get that instruction. And, it was constantly reinforced as being important. IT has served me well.

    Close embrace / apilado came about for more than one reason, I think. Crowded conditions / limited space was one of them. The man / woman thing, and wanting to be in close proximity, was another (perhaps more so than close embrace Balboa given the different demographics in BA vs "Los Angeles"?). Remember that Cacho Dante talked about the mothers watching protectively over their daughters in the suburbs, versus the grown up dancing in the central city. And, this supports that there was "open embrace" in BA when Cacho was a young man, and probably, like, practically forever.
  5. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    That's where I learned most of my technique - crowded dance floors. I dance better when it's crowded probably because I don't feel rushed to cover the open spaces and it's where I learned how to turn, stand, step, wait, get out of danger, raise leg to block kicks, HAI-YAH!!!! Which is very different from what I learned in classes; 1, 2, 3, 4 - cross, OH CRAP, someone's in front of us so let's pause here and wait until they move out of the way before completing our basic step... checks time on watch... hum a song... okay, they've moved: 5, 6, 7, and 8.

    Anyway, I make a distinction between balancing on one leg (like yoga with one leg up in the air) as opposed to changing weight, which occurs right before taking a step with both feet touching the floor. I generally do not like holding a woman's weight on one leg without immediately taking a step, though there are times when the music calls for this, as in giving a feeling of suspension or tension.
  6. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Does caminata mean long walk? I don't know what you mean but I can lead a woman to take multiple steps without having to take a step at all.
  7. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

  8. jfm

    jfm Active Member

  9. twnkltoz

    twnkltoz Well-Known Member

  10. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    yeah mediocre...;0 ..yawn..
  11. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    As this has been revived . . .

    Yes they are freely changing how they step according to the needs
    of their movement. However, as has already been mentioned by LKSO,
    this is a performance. It has lots of movement and long steps which have
    little relationship to social dancing although quite a lot of what they do
    is visually connected to the music and is superficially attractive.

    However once you talk about the social apilado dance of one body
    and four legs the man's walk is forward weighted toe lead yet flat footed
    into the floor because that is what works best for stability and confidence.
    See video of Ricardo Vidort for confirmation. In performance you may well see
    an apilado dancer heel lead because that is what an extended stride
    might demand. Once again it's form (step) following function.

    My opinion is from personal experience just as is LKSO's. Additionally
    all this weight transfer argument is pointless as the one thing missing
    from the discussion is that in apilado - at least socially - foot landings
    are immediately weighted and it is the foot landings, forward, backwards,
    sideways or even in place that mark the beat. But there is too much
    concentration on the feet, as there is in most teaching, and not enough
    on the bodies.

    And to return to that highlighted video performance, it doesn't stand
    close examination - mediocre is what it is for many reasons which
    are inappropriate to comment on here.
  12. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Here is a video from a milonga in Buenos Aires (Sunderland), where it sure looks like people land on either their heel or toe, as they see fit.
    (jump ahead to around 1:15)

  13. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    There are many examples of poor technique but it doesn't make poor technique the standard that we should all strive for. Even if poor technique is demonstrated in a performance, it doesn't make it right nor should we want to imitate it. Sadly, it seems that many people would rather watch a bad performance than to watch really good social dancing. Why? Because while anyone, dancers and non-dancers alike, can look - seeing is a skill that is developed from experience. Performances are designed to attract a large audience with grandiose and cool-looking movements. But in social dancing, there is only one member in the audience, and s/he can't see you but can feel you.
  14. Mladenac

    Mladenac Well-Known Member

    And some teachers go around the world selling their technique.
    And people believe them as they are missionaries of tango or some saints.
    But people don't use common sense what's appropriate.
    It might be a thing that they just want to explore.

    Lately I've witness of telephatic AT.
    Followers are so overly sensitive and they are not in contact with my body.
    They can never be puncuate, cuase they are either to fast or to late cause there is not contact.

    We are all subjective; if doesn't fit to us it is improper. ;)
  15. Subliminal

    Subliminal Well-Known Member

    Yes, thank you for proving my point. You could have stopped the post there, as personal preference is personal preference. What works for you doesn't work for everyone.

    The fact of the matter is, in this discussion you and LKSO are the only ones claiming that yours is the only way to do things. The burden of proof is on you two, not us. The mere fact that I know at least one dancer who dances apilado with a heel-toe step, and is considered a wonderful dancer by the followers, proves you both wrong.

  16. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I'm not saying that the way I do things is the way everyone must do it. If that were the case, then I'd have to work on my charm to get dances because everyone else would be equally skilled and women would simply choose the most charming/handsome. But that's not reality.

    In reality, we all have issues, technical and musical, that we could all improve upon, some more basic than others. I put out exactly what should be done because it will improve your dancing if you tried it. You should immediately feel the difference and be closer to the music.

    There's a lot more to good dancing than just how to step. I'm sure he has other qualities that make him considered a wonderful dancer.
  17. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    In reality, what you put out is simply what you claim should be done. It's nothing more than that.
  18. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Yes, just like every teacher who teaches. Nothing more.
    JohnEm likes this.
  19. JohnEm

    JohnEm Well-Known Member

    I am not proving your point, there is no disagreement about the subject
    of variation, only about what is best under different circumstances and
    different ways of dancing. There seems to be a disagreement about what
    is the best way of socially dancing in an embrace.

    Like many of you on hearing something that contradicts the received
    and varying wisdom from many teachers you ascribe a claim that neither
    LKSO nor I make. Nor do I feel the need to prove anything beyond my own
    personal experience though I would be delighted to see more people
    discovering how to genuinely dance the music for and with a partner.

    And I know an non-apilado dancer dance with a pointed toe lead who
    also the ladies love dancing with for his comfort and smoothness.
    But he doesn't mark the beat nor dance the music. Something is missing.
    As far as I am concerned it doesn't matter, he dances mainly sociably
    and that is his dance. I might have a different view if he taught it.

    No such thing. You posted a video to support your own personal preference.
    In the context of social dancing. I disagree. The point of a forum is
    to discuss these things as well as try to answer queries from others
    as constructively as possible. With regard to the original question that
    seems to be still ongoing.

    This is tango, there will be no resolution.
  20. bordertangoman

    bordertangoman Well-Known Member

    again, a sweeping statement. not every teacher. I teach conditionally; you can do it this way or that way, try both, now which works best for you...?

    Sometimes I can be dancing on my toes for quick lightfooted weight changes, other times I can be flat footed deep in the floor for a milonga, other times, just however I feel.

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