Tango Argentino > Toe leads for every step for the man?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by LordBallroom, Feb 3, 2013.

  1. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    After (and even during) a class like that, do you ever try to take apart the combination(s), and break it up into small pieces that you can use in other places? Sometime (depending on the teacher), I'll even ask them about I modification I'm making to make "whatever" more suitable to a milonga. The patterns really are not that important, but the techniques taught to achieve them, (hopefully) are.
  2. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member

    It's a personal response, but I find the whole VU thing so facile. It's phoney elegance: all smoke and mirrors. I'm not necessarily trying to convert anyone else to my opinion, but it just makes me want to laugh. I know there is skill involved, but it seems such a waste of misdirected effort. It sells, but tango isn't supposed to be a commercial activity, but a social dance. BR tango competition has more integrity: at least it doesn't pretend to be something its not ...

    You can tell I didn't like it, huh?
  3. Zoopsia59

    Zoopsia59 Well-Known Member

    I can't read the numbers... which pair is 26?
  4. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I thought that's the way you were leaning, but wasn't positive.


    Seriously, it does sound like your dislike has (at least mostly) to do with something other than the skill of the dancers. Performances are judged on their looks. If you wanted a performance based on how they felt, they'd have the dancers dance with judges, or something else.

    This contest is based on looks (even though they place lots of restrictions on he type of moves that are allowed). The challenge then becomes how to look as good as you can without doing anything that would get you disqualified.

    I will also say that many performers can give a really nice embrace and do a good social dance (although there are plenty of others who can not).
  5. UKDancer

    UKDancer Well-Known Member


    This is worth a minute or two of anyone's time (watch from 1:30). These dancers are the best in the world at what they do. You might not like it: you might find the style grotesque, but the degree of skill and musicianship on display is just breathtaking. If I watch performances at all (and I don't generally for entertainment - I want to dance not watch other people dance) then this it 10x better: better technically, better musically, and just jaw-droppingly good.
    bordertangoman likes this.
  6. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Note that the competition isn't about VU but "salon" style. In the very first Mundial competitions, the milongueros danced just like you would see at a milonga, responding to the music. Now, it's a complete joke because they don't hear the music at all, even though it's blaring for ALL to hear.

    Dance isn't movement. Dance is movement to music. They are not good dancers simply because they aren't responding to it. It's like doing Tai Chi to Hip Hop; no matter how good your Tai Chi, it's wrong to move like that to Hip Hop.

    Back to the video of the comp, you'll notice the dancers move in the same way to all the selections of music even though they contrast. That's just wrong.
    Lilly_of_the_valley likes this.
  7. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    Since we're posting vids of what is considered "good" dancing...

    It's actual social dancing.
  8. AndaBien

    AndaBien Well-Known Member

    Maybe I don't know what you mean by heel-toe vs flat footed. To me heel-toe means the heel comes down first, then the foot rolls onto the full sole. It only takes a moment, but that's how it works. Flat-footed means the heel and toe come down at the same time: no rolling onto.

    I can see lots of heel-toe stepping in the video.
    bordertangoman likes this.
  9. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    And in terms of choreography, this is probably one of the best example from Latin ballroom, Max and Yulia's "rhythm dance".
  10. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I only see some, most of it is stepping flat.
  11. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    I think the problem is to some extent that as soon as you start judging anything, you create a vicous circle where the standards that something is judged on becomes something that all performers are trying to emulate and/or exceed, and at the same time because all performers work towards these criteria the performances again educate the judges and inform the future standard, and it is very easy to slip into something that is almost a parody of the original intent because the judgement standards are fullfilled and exceeded by all competitioners, and subsequently adjusted, and exceeded again, and so on.

    You can see that in almost all competetive disciplines - the specific ruleset and how things are judged the discipline will drift it over time to fulfill, and sometimes over-fulfill those criteria.

    For me the "estilo mundial" is a fascinating example of that because we are watching it as it is evolving in response of who the first panel of judges were, and how the first winners were dancing. Over the last 10 years we have watched how competitioners changed their style to match the judging, became better at matching the expectations of the judges, and how by now everybody knows what kind of dancing wins championships, and i know people who started dancing tango by learning from teachers who teach towards championship dancing, and who only dance that style, and mostly when practicing for competition. I predict that over another 10 years we will see even more interesting developments as couples will on the one hand push the limits of what is allowed under the rules to distinguish themselves from the pack, and at the same time the "look and feel" of the championship style will become even more defined - and probably more extreme. Once we reach the point where the judges are ex-competitiors who have studied only competetive tango with the goal of winning competitions the circle will be closed, and "good tango" will be defined as "what wins competitions" which will be defined by the people who used to win competitions as "what we tried to do, only more so".

    It is basically similar to the reaction that i have as sombody who likes to cook and eat to the more extreme variants of molecular gastronomy - i see what they are doing, i admire their skill and creativity, it is an interesting experience, but in the end i don't really understand pushing food as art far enough into the art direction that it is not really food anymore. And even the most ardent adherents of molecular cuisine don't actually live off foams...

    Mladenac likes this.
  12. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    You can tell by the way they are dancing. I spotted them immediately. They were the most musical and actually moved to the music, whereas everyone else were moving like wind-up toys. <--Funny image. :D

    Anyway, they go off camera for a while in the beginning, but then they pop up. That's them. The big guy (tall) with the woman in white dress.
    Mladenac likes this.
  13. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I'll admit that I don't know much about ballroom tango, so I'm not qualified to have an opinion on the skill involved. It's also hard for me to compare the performance to anything I like, simply because of the annoying song that they danced to.

    Do you have a video of them dancing to a better song (something with some soul, or substance to it)?
  14. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    Show me who is not dancing VU style, and then you might have a point. It doesn't matter what the competition was, it is what it is, now.

    Why is it wrong? Is it because you say so? If someone feels it differently from you, what makes their feelings less valid than yours?
  15. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    I thought it wasn't good if they step on their heels sometimes.

    bordertangoman and Subliminal like this.
  16. LKSO

    LKSO Active Member

    I defer to Gssh's response to it.

    They're doing rehearsed steps in order to win a competition. It's wrong because they don't feel anything at all.
  17. tangomonkey

    tangomonkey Active Member

    And you know this through an elevated sense of empathy, which found them wanting, or just what exactly?

    All steps are rehearsed. No one dances tango without learning steps. Walking requires steps. I understand some tango dancers have preferences they consider gospel. The Church of Tango is broader and deeper than some fundamentalists would impose on everyone else.
  18. tangobro

    tangobro Active Member

    Aside from being en pointe etc. my experience of changing balance with age is similar to Zoopsia's, and I don't sit behind a computer for 8 hours a day. I don't even sit for 8 hours a day. Friends & family in my age range say they have noticed the same thing, but I won't disagree because as Oscar Wilde said (if i remember it right) "I'm not young enough to know everything".

    A question for the guys (leaders) that use "toe leads" when walking forward, or even if you don't use them but have been taught to do them, what part of the foot actually lands?

    I was taught that it is the sole of the foot (by some teachers), the whole foot (by others). Do you actually land on the part of the shoe under your toes?
  19. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    So are you claiming that rehearsing makes it wrong? Do you feel the same thing about practicing? If not, why is one acceptable and the other wrong?

    You also claim to know whether other people happen to be feeling anything. Really?

  20. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    While I probably do land as you describe some of the time, I think I mostly land on the ball of the foot, which would likely be the front sole of the shoe.

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