What’s WRONG with salsa?

Discussion in 'Salsa' started by SDsalsaguy, Mar 24, 2004.

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  1. D-spot

    D-spot Member

    Thanks all.
    I used to post to another board but got tired of the negative attitude. Nice here ain't it!
    D-spot
    Just love to dance with anyone, anytime, at any level, any style.
     
  2. salsachinita

    salsachinita New Member

    Welcome to DF, D-spot!

    Thankyou for your positive contribution to this thread (as well as the salsa scene) which means so much to me.

    I love having crossover fellow dancers 8) ........I am a crossover within the salsa context only :oops: ........

    The introduction thing is something I do regularly (ok, occasionally it's not to my personal best interest*), I take pride in doing so......to me it's like showing off my own garden to visitors :D .

    *By introducing great visiting salseros to my local salseras, I lose my turns to dance with them sometimes :roll: as there are just too many females here in my local scene.......they all seem to fight over the very few good leads.......*
     
  3. salsachinita

    salsachinita New Member

    :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

    .......any time, senor, anytime.........
     
  4. Vince A

    Vince A Active Member

    You know . . . I never saw the "relevance" of this until I watched you dance, versus the "other Salsa dancers" dance this past week.

    I observed noses stuck way up in the air . . . "Hey, look at me (as I walk in the door)" . . . ""Hey, check out this strut." . . . "WOW . . . is my hat and goatee look cool or what?" . . . "Watch how many moves I can get in this eight-count beat." . . . "Watch how many times I can this beoch" . . . . . . . . . . . and so on.

    What I observed, was, as you say . . . a disproportionate proportion of egotisticism/arrogance/insecurity. I can understand, when you are a Pro dancer, and you are very good, and you are used to being in the limelight on the floor . . . and so on . . . but damn, there were only a few dancers of this caliber there on the Salsa floor . . . including you. But they all had egos, including the worst dancer on the floor.

    So, I ask you . . . you are every bit as good as any of those dancers. Why didin't you have that "disproportionate proportion of egotisticism/arrogance/insecurity" syndrome???

    Maybe this will help to answer the question you began with????????
     
  5. Sarah

    Sarah New Member

    Re: attitudes when dancing

    I think that your statement here is debatable[1], but accepting it at face value, one conclusion that could be drawn is that the `instructors' you refer to ain't that good. :lol:

    Cheers
    Sarah

    [1] There are some leaders that can make any follower look hopeless. Thats why the null hypothesis is that its the leaders fault. Sorry guys ;)
     
  6. brujo

    brujo New Member

    I think we need to beware of the strawman of uberEGO.

    It is always easier to blame the more advanced dancers of performing the intricate moves because of ego, because they want to show off, because they need to perform and be in the spotlight.

    But I am sure that each and everyone of us finds that after a while, we are doing the exact same moves as the people we once critisized, but never to stroke our own egos. We might rationalize our initial judgement, 'oh, but now I know the music better so I am dancing because it moves my soul', to the casual observer, you are just a dance snob.

    I dare say that while BorikenSalsero sounds like a really nice knowledgeable guy, if we were to judge him only by the way he dances or acts in a club, he would come off as a snob with his triple spins and his rumba movements. The colored lens of our own insecurities always make the worst beer goggles.

    The problem and joy of encouraging beginners is that there is always a new batch. The salsa scene is always a rotating door of people of different levels of interest. Some people move faster than others, some don't. Some stay and become good dancers, some leave. While dancing and encouraging a beginner is the nice thing to do, sometimes you just want to follow or lead someone without being a babysitter and enjoying the dance, much harder to do with a beginner than someone familiar.

    But when we all started off not knowing our left feet from our right feet, the more advanced dancers will seem distant and hard to approach. We can carry our own insecurities through our journey of becoming salsa gods, or we can put them aside and really get to know the people in our scene. As I start to befriend more dancers in my scene, I am starting to discover that a lot of the people I thought were advanced dance snobs have the same attitudes, but seem superegotistical only because of my own fears and prejudices.

    I don't think anyone actually goes dancing with the attitude that they are to be worshipped and adored. Half the time we are just racing through our own fears in our minds, 'what if I miss this double spin?' 'what if I can't follow?', 'what if I look like a complete idiot?'.

    So there, the problem with salsa is not the egos. The problem with salsa is that we are all so damn scared to talking to the real people that are in our scenes. We prejudge the people around us based on the way they dance, not taking them for who they are, but who we think they are based on some ridiculous ideals we have about dancing and the state of their souls. Magnify this by every dancer in your scene, and it becomes the poison vine that chokes the life out of the salsa we love.
     
  7. MapleLeaf Salsero

    MapleLeaf Salsero New Member

    Re: attitudes when dancing

    Well, I think it´s much more difficult to make the follower look bad than good. Therefore, I guess we should congratulate these leads for doing something near to impossible... :wink: :wink: LOL!
     
  8. MapleLeaf Salsero

    MapleLeaf Salsero New Member

    I´ve noticed the same thing. Most of these cliques and advanced snobs are actually really nice people. :shock:. I danced with this clique for the first time last week. She was very advanced. I noticed however that during the first 30 seconds, she was very nervous. After she started relaxing a bit she started smiling a lot. :shock: I would never have expected that... I think she really enjoyed the dance. I believe the nervous part was due to the fact that she was outside her comfort zone. She always dances with the cliques and gets nervous when dancing with someone else...
     
  9. peachexploration

    peachexploration New Member

    I know you were only using this as an example but, a snob is a snob is a snob. There's a humility that Boriken has that snobs just don't have or possess. Whether they write it or demonstrate it publicly. A snob would never help others obtain their dance goals by explaining the clave. A snob would never offer advice on how become a good dancer. A snob would never offer knowledge about music, the salsa culture, etc. A snob would never invite you to their home when you're at the next salsa congress when they haven't seen how you dance. A snob would never offer encouragement when you've had a bad night of salsa dancing. What's a snob take on this? "Do it yourself, I'm already there". I understand and hear what you're saying Brujo but there is a bad side to this. If you're mistreating someone for the sake of making yourself look good, it's not okay. Sure, you can have your friends. Sure, you can dance with whomever you want, when you want. Sure, it's your perogative not to dance or mingle with certain groups. Sure, you've worked hard to get at your advanced level. Sure, it may be best to keep your dances with beginners to a minimum in order to maintain your level. But, don't "impose" ill feeling towards someone else. That may be the dancer's choice as well, but that doesn't make it okay.

    I think we are talking about the obvious snobs. The ones that tell you, I Am the Greatest in the Universe.
     
  10. danceguy

    danceguy New Member

    Hmm, I've found "snobs" to be of any level of dancing. They could be a group of drunks just hanging out who can't dance at all, or a "top dawg" who thinks thy are G-d's gift to Salsa. :?

    But there is some truth to being intimidated by a really good dancer that precludes us to judge them unfairly. As I'm getting better and observing the more advanced dancers...I'm finding that while my skill level is increasing, theirs hasn't changed much. The people I used to think were really good aren't looking as great as they used to be.

    Now, I didn't think all of them were snobs...only the ones that were not very friendly and super cliquish. Its really about the energy that they give off...some of them are down to earth good hearted people, the type that you'd invite over your house for a Sunday BBQ. :p

    The others, well let's just say I'd be more inclined to run them over with my car! ;) :car:

    SG
     
  11. peachexploration

    peachexploration New Member

    LOL, Right SG. A snob will definitely let you know they're in the room.
    Yes, I think this is what Brujo was saying and that's when our own perception becomes our problem. But for the most part, the awfulness of "arrogance" and "snobbishness" does exist in the Salsa world.
     
  12. borikensalsero

    borikensalsero Moderator

    Wepaaaaaa....

    Brujo thank you for the kind words, as well as the use of my name to express a point. Peachexploration, thank you for seeing in my writing the humbleness I so much wish to implant in the salsa world. Thank you for the kind words.

    While I see your point brujo there is a rather big difference between someone humbly dancing while doing advance moves (SKILL) and someone with the nose up in the air, an high chest, and eyes half opened looking around checking out who is watching them (ATTITUDE). Rolling their heads from left to right as if there is nothing the can not do. Those dancers stop at no end to rub the cold shoulder to their partner in attempts to look good themselves. That is a dance snob, not because he is good but because of his attitude! I equal it to those wealthy folks who walk around with their nose too high up in the air, acting as if the world is theirs, clearly looking down upon others. Not really saying that they have money, but that they are better than anyone else. While there are those wealthy people that the first thing you say about them is how humble a person they seem, despite being loaded.

    I am in NY City, I see the inflated egos every night doing the same moves as others missing the inflated ego do. It is a pleasure to see an advance dancer do what he likes to do and do it not to reward his god all mighty status, and feed an Ego, but because they love. You can see it in their face that the difficulty of the move has not a thing to do with the gratification of allowing his partner to come along for a ride.

    Attitude portrayed during a dance is what makes the difference between a snob and he who isn’t, not skill, but attitude. Vince put it rather eloquent when he spoke of seeing SD dance as opposed to others. He spoke of SD skills yet mentioned how SD chose to look humble while been just as good or better than other dancers there. However, other fellows chose to display a snotty attitude, the attitude that we, today, speak of.

    For skill has nothing to do with how we chose to mask that skill. I am sorry that you think my skill level hides the person I am simply because I know more moves than others. For that I have obviously failed through my writings, for I haven’t demonstrated to you that my writings persona is the one I choose to display when I dance, as opposed to how many spins I can do. I have always attempted to mold my goal as the search for passion in a dance, to ultimately display that passion not only for me, but for my other half, and others who so presence what I call love in a dance, not how many hours I have spent practicing for others to glorify my skills. I would be no one if my concern were the blatant disregards for others; even those who merely watch me dance. For they too are my concern, for those very fellows may one day too chose to seek love as I have thus far sought it.
     
  13. Vin

    Vin New Member

    Re: attitudes when dancing

    I think it is more reasonable to say that a good dancer can make a beginner FEEL good about there dancing while dancing with them. Making someone else look good is a much more difficult and ultimately much less important task in my opinion.
     
  14. Danish Guy

    Danish Guy New Member

    Re: attitudes when dancing

    Well put Vin.

    That’s what I'm trying every time.
    Some times it even looks good 8)
     
  15. cocodrilo

    cocodrilo New Member

    What I was implying by a "good dancer" was good both in skills and intentions. I am a teacher(although in culture, not dance!) and to me, a "good instructor" of ANYTHING most importantly includes being sincere, and a close second having the requisite skills and experience.
     
  16. Gregorio

    Gregorio New Member

    I know this is an old topic, but whenever you feel disillusioned with Salsa, rent Dance with Me and pay close attention to Chayanne's attitude!!!
     
  17. Sarah

    Sarah New Member

    Re: attitudes when dancing

    Couldn't agree more. Sometimes the objective is just to have enough fun to keep them ocoming back to the floor.

    Cheers
    Sarah
     
  18. Sabor

    Sabor New Member

    unless its already too too crowded of course.. in that case its allright to project some snobishness and negative ''look @ me look @ me " attitude for the benefit of lesser injury prospects in an over-crowded floor .. so in this case one is sacrificing self image for the safety of the general :lol: .. aah a truly misunderstood martyr in the world of criticism LOL

    seriously tho'.. just dance it the best u know how.. the way u know how.. worry less about what u dont have taste for and focuss more on what u like.. a positive attitude goes along way .. and its contagious.. it spreads.. unlike negativity and negative attitude.. it chokes itself out.. all in good time mes amis.. all in good time.. salsa can only keep getting stronger.. just look at its staggering growth over the past 5 years or so.. incredible 8) .. and it aint stopping for no body.. no matter how puffed up or snazzy the be..
    ants to the giant is all they are ..
    all they'll ever be..
    so kindly.. go out tonight ..
    salsa your heart out ..
    set your soul and body free :wink:
     
  19. tchaguito

    tchaguito New Member

    I don't have time now to read the posts adequately, but skimming through them, I wonder if salsa isn't a quite elitistic activity. I think that in the case of small salsa scenes like my own, where it is easy for one to be noticed, there tends to be a smaller amount of more advanced dancers, who thus tend more to feel like Gods or divas, like a rare breed, unique, and in a way superior to the common mortals.
    It is very rare for me to see a teacher inviting an absolute beginner or non-advanced dancers.
    For me, this denotes a strong lack of values and humility. But again, do values and humility take us anywhere in the modern world?

    Tiago
     
  20. youngsta

    youngsta Active Member

    elitist, nah, let's just say that salsa attracts many people that like to be seen and once they've put in all the work to become a good salsero they believe they SHOULD be seen. Egotistical, probably...elitist, I doubt it.
     
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