Discussion in 'Dancers Anonymous' started by lynn, Aug 3, 2005.
i'm just cuirous whether or not this is an isolated incident....
I would be surprised if it was
Sometimes i feel a little sorry for guys, there are only so many styles of shirt they can choose. My dad wears cream coloured shirt only and eventhough he changes his shirt everyday (i'm not kidding, my mom used to complain about washing & ironing his shirt everyday!!), it looks as if he wears the same one year round!
Well, but when it comes to suits, they have so much better selection.. So many nice fabrics. I am jealous of mans suit sections in the stores, for us we have a choice of maybe 20-30 different things. THere are no suit only stores for us..
ACtually if you wear an undershirt, eg. T-shirt, and then something on top the top item can remain clean for quite a few days... I don't do this myself as I have way too many T-shirts....etc...must get rid of some one of these days...
Unless your undershirt/t-shirt is white and doesn't have any prints or if your shirt is thick or colourful enough to cover the print underneath, it looks a little funny.
T-shirt is white of course!! Depends actually on what the top is and so sometimes I'll wear black etc...but it never shows through!
very interesting! do you have hte link?
My friends sometimes don't get why I prefer NOT to emphasize my feminity at work, especially since I work with mostly all males (the few other women are secretaries). I just prefer not to have that extra attention and be treated as a full fledged professional. My youth has already been a liability in that respect (started working at 19), so I don't need to add another issue to the mix
I think femininity is very different than flirting with fellow co-workers/managers. I've worked with female managers who are professional but yet feminine (in a sensitive, gentle way). I've often seen women try too hard to lose their feminine side, they ended up being domineering and authoritative. I think the focus is being professional and really focus on your strengths. Men and women have different leadership styles and gender really has nothing to do with it.
I talked about emphasis of feminity as in flaunting it, not sabotaging or mis-acknowledging it. there's a difference. It comes across in conduct, how one dresses, speaks, makeup and various other distractions
For example women who are flirty with colleguaes will not be taken seriously in a high tech field (if they even make it there in the first place). In this arena your work is expected to stand on its own.
that's how is, meritocracy rather than looks and other characteristics that are more valued in other fields like sales/finance/PR/ecetera
I agree with this entirely. Frankly, women who flirt are not taken seriously in any field, because it just shows lack of professionalism. And no manager that I know of wants to hire someone who's unprofessional.
No one talks about men being "domineering and authoritative", why is that stigma attached to an empowered woman? actually these are considered good qualitites in men...sometiems women we sabotage ourselves
Everyone has to decide their own definition of womanhood in the professional setting. If being authoritative ensures that the men under you (example women CEOs or managers in high tech fields) respect you, listen to you and allow you to be boss without a hint of patronizing conduct then why not?
Domineering is a more negative quality, most organizations are team oriented so it's pretty hard to come across such individuals in my field
Being a work right now and not being able to commit the full amount of time needed for a response such as this... I will simply state business casual. Usually dresses or a nice skirt/dress pants with an appropriate blouse/sweater/blazer, etc. Generally speaking I never wear t-shirts or shorts...although occasionally I will wear jeans (like today...Friday) and I like to go casual in khakis. Shoes are usually boots or heels.
On a totally side and kind of fun note...last weekend I went shopping and just updated my entire work wardrobe. Yippie! :banana:
Domineering does have a negative connotation thus I put it in the context of "trying too hard". I"m using the term loosely and in general because what I often see is female managers being overly aggressive in trying to match their male counterpart and to keep their male subordinates in check. Is that really necessary?? Sometimes yes, but those employees who do not respect you for the sole reason because you're female are quite rare - chances are, they probably won't respect their manager even if it's a man. In most cases, employees respect their superior (men or women) simply because they've demonstrated the skills required for the job. Don't believe me?? Think about it, are male managers respected when they're domineering simply because they're "men"?? Of course not!
The bottom line is, a good leader requires many soft skills, it's all about balance. I"m all hands for enpowered women and in no way sabotaging ourselves. I"m simply sharing my experience & observation.
I actually have not seen this "overly aggressive". But if the men do it to get ahead, why not the women too?
If you crucify that woman, then crucify her male counterparts too and don't just castigate her because her position and actions are amplified by her gender. In fact the good question is why does she seem to be over compensating? Perhaps the company culture is working against her?
It's hard to tell if you've never been in that hot seat. But believe me gender still makes a big difference in how respect is earned, and how long it takes to acquire respect
Which is why work fashion can be important depending on the field
Oh but most times they won't need to resort to "domineering" exactly because they are men. Whether we realize it or not, the traditional figures of authority around us have long been male, and subsciously that affects how we relate in new situations where we are subordinates
For example, the way I relate to my dad causes me to automatically show respect for men who are about the same age, regardless of what they've done to earn it - well that is until they give me reason not to
Talk to female police officers sometime, that should give some insight on the dificulties of being in position of authority as a female, and still maintaining the same level of respect enjoyed by a male colleague from the public and from her coworkers
psychology is an amazing thing
O.K., the point was, being overly aggressive is not a positive characteristic. Period, regardless of gender.
When I look at a manager, I take gender out of the equation. I would consider the same action/attitude overly aggressive in a man as well. It's just from my experience, the proportion is higher in women.
Why is she overcompensating?? I have no idea, insecurity because she's competing with male colleagues?? I really don't know. Was the company culture working against her?? No. When we consider promotions, we compare experiences and qualifications, not gender. In fact, in some organizations I know of, being a woman actually gives you an advantage (kind of like being in minority) because the company want equal proportion of male/female managers.
When you see a woman equal to your mother's age, do you not also respect her as well?? I think when you respect someone, the respect is across the border, regardless of gender and age. To say someone respect men and not women is the same as saying he or she has no respect for anyone. More often than not, the kind of "respect" mentioned in the previous sentence is the product of fear. Yes, I will say that the respect is somewhat different between men and women, but for normal people like you and me, how likely is it that when your male manager changes to a female manager, you start disobey them and give them a hard time? At least I didn't, not unless she gives me a reason to.
What I've kept on emphasizing is that each individual has his/her leadership style, trying to imitate what's perceived as the society norm isn't going to work. Male/female managers have different characteristics, make use of that characteristics. Being a good manager means being flexible. One employee may need a manager that's a little more authoritative, while the other employee may need someone who's more compromisable. Being a stereotypical manager isn't going to cut it, men or women. I have worked with about the same number of male/female managers and I have a lot of respect for many of them. What it comes down to, gender has nothing to do with it.
As for the dress code, I think as long as the person looks professional and presentable, what he or she wears is fine.
Interesting discussion. From my angle, you're both right. As an African American female engineer, I've spent my whole career working in a mostly male industry (although that's changing a bit now. You go, girls! )
I've seen it all. I've been in meetings where female PhD's with years of experience were ignored and dismissed by men with lesser credentials and experience. I've been in situations where a woman's idea was discredited -- until a man uh... stole the idea and broadcast it for himself. I've been on teams where everybody worked together well, regardless of gender. I've been on projects where a woman in a leadership role emulated men and got ahead by doing so. I've known a handful of powerful women who were very (stereotypically) feminine -- all the soft skills in place -- and who were very effective leaders of mixed gender organizations. I've known women who got ahead by exploiting their feminine wiles. I've known women who emulated men and stayed at the bottom of the career ladder. And I've seen a similar distribution on the male side of things, as well. :?
This is an issue that I, at least, can't possibly sum up in any one statement. Whatever I say, I'll be right. And wrong. Maybe because societal roles and expectations are in such rapid flux? Hmm. I really don't know. *shrug*
like I said 8)
I agree entirely. Considering we can't change society's POV, we can only do so much ourselves. Perhaps I'm being idealistic, but I prefer to stay true to who I am and not emulate anything regardless of what'll get me ahead, but that's just me.
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