Worse for Ballroom Dancing -- Master P or Len?

Discussion in 'Dancing on TV' started by Big10, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. kansas49er

    kansas49er New Member

    Hmmmm... I was replying to several posts that thought Master P's awkwardness was possibly an inspiration to beginning dancers. Being well aware of how much work, time, and commitment it takes to learn, it is not something I am currently contemplating. And although I will probably never be a ballroom dancer, I still enjoy watching ballroom dancing. I also like watching dance contests. While it is true that often the best dancer does not win, it is often a situation where the winner and the next best are fairly close, or the jduges lose credibility. P is and has been clearly the worst. The fact that he is still on is a testament to his fans, not his dancing. This is supposedly a Dance contest, hence my dissatisfaction. I am well aware that is really entertainment, and not a true contest. If so, the call in audience would have far less to say about the results. It's all about ratings. Which is fine and dandy with me. No problem with that. The networks are in it to make money, that is why they exist. i still want P to go, and there is (at least in my mind) no justification for him to stay. Rationalizing it accomplishes nothing. But then, that is only my opinion. obviously not all agree.
     
  2. Big10

    Big10 Member

    Is Master P the best dancer on the show? No, far from it. I think I've said many times on this forum that his dancing has sucked so far. He has shown improvement though, and I think there is actually a possibility that he could eventually score higher than George Hamilton in a dance if they both last long enough (mainly because of George's physical limitations). No right-thinking person who has ever learned any dance techniques would give Master P a score above last for any dance thus far. The audience vote is different, though, and people have different reasons for voting for the Ashly/Master P team to stay another week. Many of those reasons are as unrelated to the celebrity's dance performance as the people who like Max's butt, Tony's face, Stacy's legs, George's tan, Lisa's lips.....oops, I got carried away there :oops: .... but you know what I mean.;)

    Does he "deserve to win"? If he follows the rules, and the calculations eventually put him at the top, then, yes, he "deserves" it as much as anybody else on the show.


    "Put aside his persona" and then do what....conform to the ballroom conventions? Is that what he needs to do to become more "independent" in your mind?

    I do understand your general point, and it sounds like we would agree that every culture/subculture has its own "norms." At least Master P is exercising some independence in choosing which set of conventions to follow. The hostility to that is somewhat understandable, but the degree of hostility is somewhat surprising.
     
  3. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member


    I can understand where you're coming from on this. And perhaps I'm more open to the 'popularity counts' when it comes to something like American Idol, where I have no personal care about the outcome.

    And for the record, while I go on and on about Max's 'assets', I think he's a great dancer, but I'm not sure that Tia has proved yet that she deserves the title, dance-wise, either. Although I could live with it if she won....
     
  4. DancePoet

    DancePoet New Member

    I'm not sure these are the only two things that matter. If this is being marketed as a dance contest, and the guy can't dance better then another contender, then he doesn't "deserve to win".

    And frankly, unless he significantly improves his performance, I doubt he will win. It is a shame he had enough votes to get this far.
     
  5. DancePoet

    DancePoet New Member

    Probably not across the board.

    Aaa ... nope, his performances just reflect his inability to currently ballroom dance with any integrity.

    Perhaps. Yet if he really performs worse then another, does it make sense for him to be around for the next round over the other person who danced better? Yes, I know it is largely due to the way the voting guidelines have been established, yet this is a dancing contest, correct?

    Not if they are familiar with the way these types of contests are suppose to be judged.

    In answer to the first part, this seems to imply the audience doesn't know what is going on with this show. In answer to the second part, most people don't take up ballroom to do competition. ;)

    This could be very valid.

    I'm not thrilled with Len's judging, but I am less thrilled with P's staying power particularly when he beat out another competitor who has danced better then P.
     
  6. Infosaturated

    Infosaturated New Member

    It's dancing with the STARS, not a "Dancing Contest". Sure the basic format is a dancing contest but there is nothing to win but a very tacky oversized "trophy". The hook is seeing niche stars dance, not the dancing in and of itself.

    That a lot of the dancing is actually good to the uneducated eye is a bonus. Take away the celebrities, or the costumes, or the viewer vote, and ratings would fall like a stone and the show would be cancelled.

    If the couples were eliminated by skill it would be very predictable and there would be no point in voting. Jerry and George shouldn't be there any more than Miller because Giselle was clearly better than both of them too.

    I am a lot more concerned about Jerry advancing than I am Miller because I am pretty sure that as the field narrows he will be eliminated. I don't think he will make the final 3. Jerry may well make the final 3, maybe even the final two.

    But then, I am not voting based purely on dancing ability either. I am now rooting for Tia and Drew. My criteria is a mix of dancing and other factors, in this case, likability and potential to boost careers. I wouldn't mind if they don't end up being the final 2, but I don't think either should go before Jerry, George and Miller.

    I suspect we may see Stacy and Jerry as the final two with Stacy taking the win.

    I'd love to see Tia take the win but I suspect that while she is gaining fans, she doesn't have enough to take her to the top unless she manages the fast dances better than I think she will.
     
  7. Infosaturated

    Infosaturated New Member

    I meant to mention that I think the key point is that the show is popular because it pulls in fans of celebrities that would normally not tune into a ballroom dancing competition followed by people wondering what all the hoopla is about. The show needs contestants that are viewed as being completely out of the element.

    I suspect that Trista was the best dancer last year, and yet she was voted off first. People didn't object too strenuously because Evander was lovable. People were more upset when Rachel was voted off not so much because they loved her, but because by that time voters had polarized over Kelly worried that her popularity threatened Joey and John, which it turned out it did.

    Someone noted that people who did not see the first show don't understand all the "hate" directed at Miller, and I think that is very true. He became "The Villian". With Kelly the attacks were based on her having posed nude in the past and her "rated X" costumes. Even when it was pointed out that her costumes were pretty much par for the course and that Rachel too had posed nude it didn't matter. Kelly's improved dancing and her fiesty can-do attitude overcame her detractors.

    Miller is much easier to attack because of the way he talks and dresses and because of the nature of rap lyrics, but, the attacks are also causing a backlash because a lot of people are seeing him as nice guy.

    The show has a participatory "soap opera" factor that attracts viewers. For example, a large part of my support of Tia and Drew is based on liking them and feeling their careers stand to gain the most from the exposure.

    So basically, we can thank the P. Miller types for the success of the show which has raised the profile of ballroom dancing. Controversial characters and results are what create the watercooler buzz which is what drives the ratings.
     
  8. gusmahler

    gusmahler New Member

    I don't think Tia has much to gain from this. She's washed up actress and was never a movie star to begin with. Because of her age, I don't see her re-starting her career.

    Stacy probably has the most to gain. She's still young, but her acting career has never gone anywhere besides very minor movie roles and wrestling. The exposure here could lead to acting gigs later on.

    Drew's career should also have a boost from this show and if he doesn't release an album before the summer, he needs to find a new manager, because he has to strike when he's hot.
     
  9. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    Don't underestimate the number of "Wayne's World" fans out there. ;)
     
  10. alemana

    alemana New Member

    i am hoping the upcoming PBS airing of OSB will get a ratings boost from all the buzz about ballroom right now (including promos on ET, which have really surprised me.) it would be great if a celebrity-less dance tournament (the real thing in many ways) could pull decent ratings and get televised ballroom dancing back on the cultural map. i'm not opposed to the PBS show 'riding the coattails' of a gimmick contest - quite the opposite.
     
  11. cornutt

    cornutt Well-Known Member

    I don't think that's the way KC49er intended it. Let me see if I can express my own thought on it in words that make sense:

    There are two ways P could go with this. One, he could throw himself into the existing ballroom culture and learn to become a more-or-less traditional ballroom dancer, like a lot of other dancers do. Or, he could actually put some work into inventing what he talked about, "ghetto ballroom". Bring in some flava; incorporate a few hip-hop moves and see where it leads to. Use some imagination and see how the two things could be made to mesh. It could be the next revolution in ballroom dancing, equivalent to the impact that pre-Castro Cuba had.

    But so far we've seen neither of these things happen. And that is what frustrates me about P. He's neither leading nor following, in either sense of that phrase.
     
  12. Another Elizabeth

    Another Elizabeth Active Member

    This season, the last episode will pick a winner from the final three, not the final two (which should eliminate the problem that the judges' votes don't count in the final episode).
     
  13. Big10

    Big10 Member

    Please tell me how "these types of contests" are supposed to be judged. I'm honestly curious. To be more specific, I'm curious about the judging standards for other similar contests where (1) the contestants are pre-selected by the organizers for subjective reasons (not random entries), (2) half of the dancers are dancing one style and the other half are dancing a different style, and (3) the judges don't even seem to have been given identical guidelines on which style of dancing the competitors are supposed to perform. Is there really any other non-televised dance contest like this one?

    In my view, just like Infosaturated has posted, DWTS is a "dance contest" in only the loosest fashion possible -- and every single participant knew exactly what he/she was getting into from the very beginning. However, for those of you who are so uptight about who "deserves" to advance, where is your similar sense of righteous outrage over George Hamilton? There is no way that he is a better dancer than Giselle Fernandez, and a decent argument can be made that he wasn't as good as Tatum O'Neal, either. Yet he also survives for another week.....
     
  14. Big10

    Big10 Member

    I can't believe that's what kansas49er intended, because your interpretation makes absolutely no sense to me. Come on, now. :? How could Master P be expected to invent some sort of "ghetto ballroom" in his first month of dancing? (And, by the way, I believe the actual term he used was "Gangster Cha Cha," just for his first dance.) To create some new form of ballroom dancing, a person would have to be skilled enough in the basics of the common form, before being able to "revolutionize" it -- and it's obvious that Master P has only a marginal grasp on even the basics at this point. Plus, he's not even known for having any skill at hip-hop dancing, either. He's just a rapper, producer, and business owner as far as I know.

    If anybody hates Master P mainly because he hasn't helped Ashly to create "ghetto ballroom," then that person has less of a grasp on reality than Master P had on the Cha Cha. :roll:
     
  15. cornutt

    cornutt Well-Known Member

    OK, I'm done with this topic. And someone here just became the first person on my DF ignore list.
     
  16. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    Woohoo! Is it me? Is it me?
     
  17. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    the thing I love most about ballroom, is the presence of true gentelmen...thank you cornutt
     
  18. Big10

    Big10 Member

    Well, obviously it's me.....sorry, Joe. :p Can't say that I've ever been put on someone's "ignore" list before, but there's a first time for everything, I suppose. All I'm looking for is some logical consistency in the positions that are different from mine, and I'm open to changing my mind if I'm wrong. This is a "discussion" forum, right? I just didn't see anything reasonable about the way cornutt described what might be expected from Master P as a newbie ballroom dancer, especially as an interpretation of kansas49er's post. Perhaps kansas49er can chime in at some point with a clarification about which one of us was closer to interpreting his original point correctly.

    I thought my tone has been much nicer than many of the things I've seen in this forum during the past couple of weeks. Oh well. :-?
     
  19. mamboqueen

    mamboqueen Well-Known Member

    Well, I think everyone has different expectations on what this show is supposed to be all about. Some people enjoy it more for its entertainment value, and others take it more for the "dance competition" aspect. So, I think you're going to get divergent opinions on the outcome of the show based on what people are personally "getting" from the show.
     
  20. fascination

    fascination Site Moderator Staff Member

    I dont doubt your intent big10 but I can assure you that cornutt was being sincere, perhaps not correct in your view but sincere ....some times really good people just get disappointed at not being taken at face value....I agree also that worse has been said....and I for one look forward to not having so much of that sort of thing crop up....
     

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