Worse for Ballroom Dancing -- Master P or Len?

Discussion in 'Dancing on TV' started by Big10, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. Joe

    Joe Well-Known Member

    Real Alternative.
     
  2. SD,
    Thanks for the tip. I will mark it in my calendar. I really wish I could watch more dance contests, ballroom dancing on TV but since I hardly watch TV I don't know when they are on and on what channel. Any other tips for dancing on TV??
     
  3. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    I think there's a whole thread on the topic. Hmm. I'llhave to search for it and may not find it. But I could swear it's here somewhere. :?
     
  4. pygmalion

    pygmalion Well-Known Member

    Dang! The search function didn't help. But I know the thread exists. Does anybody remember what it was called? :?

    I'm getting ready to crash for the day. But somebody remind me to look for it tomorrow. :)
     
  5. SDsalsaguy

    SDsalsaguy Administrator Staff Member

    My pleasure SA but, unfortunately, I don't know of any others. Real ballroom comps really don;t get airtime in the USA... :?
     
  6. Big10

    Big10 Member

    All I wanted was an explanation of your own statement using your own words, and yet all I get is just another question in return :? .....if you are not a politician now, then I am guessing that you must have been one in a previous life! :p

    My problem with Len is that he is now the most recognizable "face" of ballroom dancing to the non-dancing public in his capacity as head judge, and he went beyond mere dance critiques to declare Evander Holyfield and Master P as essentially incapable of being ballroom dancers no matter how hard they might work in the future -- and, in my opinion, those two men's abilities are much closer to the "average" man who might get into dancing either reluctantly (e.g., pressured by a significant other) or on a lark. Carrie Ann made a similar comment to Kelly early last season, but has never been as personally harsh since that time. Len comes across as very elitist and unwelcoming. Honestly, some of the Internet comments I have seen do not make his attitude appear very far from the norm in the ballroom world, either. Any positive public image given to ballroom is more likely to come more from the participation of energetic, fun personalities like Stacy, Drew, Jerry, and Ashly, rather than Len.
     
  7. randomMysh

    randomMysh New Member

    I don't remember what he said about Evander, but as far as his criticism of P goes, that's not what I got out of Len's comments, personally. I took his comments to mean that P will not become a good ballroom dancer, not no matter how hard he tries, but because he does not try at all, relatively speaking. Which is a fact that even you couldn't debate, not after the comparative hours of practice were revealed. What bothered me the most about P is that he talked of giving 150% and being a positive role model, yet he clearly did not put in the effort.
    Let me explain that my reaction to P stems from my personal experience. In college I worked in a group home for troubled teens, and I've seen a lot of wannabe role models in those kids' lives that behaved much like P did, and I can tell you from watching the kids first hand--the effect on them was very powerful, and not a good one. At all. It angered me at the time, and it angers me now. I don't care what effect P will have on ballroom, but I really hope he has NO effect on the "kids in the hood" he said he wanted to influence.
     
  8. moother

    moother New Member

    I generally like Len when he gives advice. Most of the time I agree with him even if I am watching with a purely amateur eye. I had to agree with him the other night when he was talking to Ashley and P and the crowd started booing like he was saying something totally wrong! He finally said...SHUT UP!
    That may not have been nice but the crowd was giving P the idea that he was being judged unfairly and he wasn't. He was giving a very accurate review and critique of what P called dancing.
     
  9. Big10

    Big10 Member

    I don't know the relevance of your personal experience or mine, but I also did volunteer work with underprivileged teens during college, and I have continued to do so afterwards. I guarantee you that for the overwhelming majority of them, their first exposure to Master P (any many other tv/movie/music personalities who are much worse than he) was not from watching Dancing With The Stars. I was indeed disappointed that he didn't put in more training hours, but I honestly thought it was a positive thing on this show to see his "soft side" with Ashly and the genuine affection that developed between the two of them.
     
  10. Chris Stratton

    Chris Stratton New Member

    Looking at P's jive, and motivation problems aside, my immediate reaction is that nobody told him to stop over using his departing leg, and perhaps use the arriving one some instead For some reason, lots of guys, myself included, struggled with this for a long time - it's exhibited by either launching into a movement too big for the tempo, or failing to really do much at all out of fear of the former happening every time you do. The thing is it doesn't need to be a struggle - all it needs is a teacher to spot the problem, explain what you are actually supposed to do to get from one foot to the other, and reinforce that through the early practice as you are trying to get the hang of it.

    Yes, P was probably a difficult student - but it's unclear if he was ever actually taught how to dance, instead of just being expected to figure it out.
     
  11. Big10

    Big10 Member

    You've raised an interesting point, and probably one that could be the subject of its own thread on this forum. In other words, what aspects of the dancing should be attributed to the "celebrity" and what aspects should be attributed to the choreographing pro?

    That was a big thought on my mind last season regarding some of the criticisms against Kelly, and it struck me particularly when Carrie Ann said about Master P's performance last Thursday night that "without a matador, there's no Paso Doble" (or something to that effect). Yet, how was Master P supposed to know how to effectively portray a matador according to ballroom standards? I think Ashly is awesome (and really cute :oops: ) but to me that was a choreography issue for which Master P should not have received all the blame.
     
  12. wooh

    wooh Well-Known Member

    So during which of the 5 whole hours of teaching this week was she supposed to have taught that? I honestly don't think Ashley is the strongest teacher or choreographer on the show. But considering the limited time she's had with this particular "student", I think she did amazingly well. There's only so much one can teach in a limited time, especially if the "student" isn't particularly focused or dedicated. (And how do I know he wasn't focused or dedicated? Focused and dedicated students do more than the minimum required.)
     
  13. Big10

    Big10 Member

    Everything I know about Paso Doble is what I saw in Strictly Ballroom....in other words, not much. However, based on Carrie Ann's comment, I got the impression that the choreography starts with the matador (whatever that means dance-wise) and moves from there. Apparently it was important enough for another couple (Drew & Cheryl, I think?) to have a "real" matador help with the instruction.

    So, if it's that essential, then my guess is that Ashly should have spent the first part of the instruction time dealing with that, or at least making sure it was something she could give the illusion was there (like Edyta's dancing circles around George's "matador").
     
  14. ACtenDance

    ACtenDance Active Member

    Believing what Carrie Ann says is not a wise thing to do. She has the best of intentions I'm sure, but she doesn't know what she's talking about.
     
  15. wooh

    wooh Well-Known Member

    And this was supposed to be in what part of the 5 hours? I know everything's bigger in Texas, but when I lived there, 5 hours was still only 5 hours. Have the hours gotten bigger there in the last few years?
     
  16. musicchica86

    musicchica86 Active Member

    I'm going to have to agree with wooh on this one. 5 hours is barely enough time for him to learn the choreography, much less get into the "spirit" of things.

    I'd be curious to know why you're trying to make excuses for the man when he obviously didn't put in the effort and used promoting his new album as his own excuse.
     
  17. Big10

    Big10 Member

    What "excuses" have I made? :? Apparently you chose to overlook this statement from just one page back:
    I have also repeatedly stated that Master P's dancing during this season sucked/was not good/was bad, etc.

    I've started a couple of discussion threads in this sub-forum asking questions about people's opinions, and I've responded with my own opinions when people asked questions of me or otherwise addressed the topic of the thread. If you have a different opinion, that's perfectly fine. But why such hostile tones in the writing from several of you, whenever Master P is discussed?

    In any event, does anyone care to answer the question about whether the choreographer or the student should be blamed for failing to include the matador in a Paso Doble? Or is Carrie Ann just clueless about that concept, as ACtenDance suggests?
     
  18. wooh

    wooh Well-Known Member

    I would say that "acting the Matador" would fall under styling, which you can't get to styling until you get the basics down, and in 5 hours, if you get the basics and choreography down, you're doing excellent. Considering obviously P didn't even get that down, "acting the Matador" was the least of his concerns.
     
  19. saludas

    saludas New Member

    Master P's result (what he looked like) is typical, to me, of a beginner student. One who 'heard' about 1 percent of what the teacher told him.

    Yes, he was certainly instructed and shown what Paso was like etc. The teacher, unfortunately, had a 'student' that only grasped a small percentage of what he was told. Or processed. He failed to do it. When he was told, for instance, in his lesson, to hold out his arm in a 'defiant' way, for instance, he promptly processed this request from his teacher through his 'intellect' side and turned that strong, forceful action into a swish of his arm, if he even remembered it at all. To him, all he remembered, or cared to remember, was that when x happpened he did y.

    The choreography of Paso for students true silver level looks a lot like slow merengue, so his choreography was a little more advanced than some, but I'm sure his teacher realized how little he was going to grasp and so had him do what he would do rather than what he could do.

    I resented his 'judging' his situation. Like all absolute beginners, he needed to strip away from his ego any thoughts of competencey and just get into the process.

    Unfortunately, you are like most of the viewers of the show - all you 'know' about Paso Doble came from a fanciful story that 'explained' it to you, and since the story you was acted by dancers who actually COULD do elements of dance, it appears to you, like most folks, that dance somehow is a thing they can do if they just 'try' or 'wish'. Like learning self defense by painting a fence from "The Karate Kid". Or showdancing in one week from "Dirty Dancing". etc. Those are MOVIES.

    Five hours of instruction? Look at the average Proam dancer, and look at their first competition. That's what five hours of instruction look like, with a student who, while certainly not practicing outside that five hours, at least displays heart and attempts.
     
  20. justdance

    justdance New Member

    Morning, everyone...that's an interesting question about the choreography and where to rest the blame so to speak.
    One thing I've learned through the years is that when it comes to teachers, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" is the perfect answer to the question.
    It doesn't matter how good the teacher is in explaining, demonstrating and guiding the student. At the end of the day, the teacher cannot do it for the student. Therefore, I don't believe anyone is to "blame". When you look at it that way, you can understand the teacher's frustration for the student if they struggle, and their joy when the student has a breakthrough. The bond between the teacher and student is wonderful and in most cases, I would hope, both view it as a journey they are taking together.
     

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