Allright then, ganchos....

#21
I know it is possible to lead them that way, so they are basically the same thing as a high boleo, more or less involuntary if the leg is relaxed. But I don't actually dance with anyone at all who does lead them so that it's really like that. It just doesn't happen in reality. People who can actually do that, aren't social dancers who are going to dance with me, or if they are, they're not going to do that in social dancing.
I think these are what are called "involuntary ganchos" or "forced ganchos", or at least were in the workshops I did. I recall spending ages trying unsuccessfully to lead this, until I asked the instructor (a visiting professional who came to the UK often, until a few years ago) to lead one on me. Wow. The amount of force he used was terrifying, and I knew instantly why I was not achieving this move and why I would never want to do it to a girl. Interestingly other student guys considered this amount of force to be not excessive. The girls... varied.

When I later visited BsAs for the first time, I found they just do not do these moves ("forced" or otherwise) in social dancing. You can watch all night at e.g. Lo De Celia and not see even one gancho. Except perhaps from a foreigner who's learned it in a workshop abroad. Locally such moves are considered only for stage tango. A girl doesn't at all mind that kind of treatment if she is a professional being paid to receive it.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#22
mmh, your answer makes me wonder...
... the amount of force he used was terrifying..
chris, you are a good dancer, dont you think, there was something wrong, either with the proficiency ot that teacher, or with your lead-abilty? ;) I think, there should not be too much energy in that back-ganchos. And I also think, its a lie, when people swear the leg flies all out of its own, only driven by the energy of that stopped motion. There´s so much illusion in TA, isnt it?

cheers
 
#23
I also think, its a lie, when people swear the leg flies all out of its own, only driven by the energy of that stopped motion.
I prefer to think of it as misunderstanding combined with wishful thinking.

There´s so much illusion in TA, isnt it?
There's much illusion in what you get by show and tell... but there's only truth in what you get by feel.
 
#24
The follower does not "kick", and nothing is signalled by "offering the space", and if a follower does not do a gancho it is exactly the same as when she does not do a high boleo - it is her choice. And waiting for her to "do the gancho" not only invalidates her choice, but is not possible.
Sadly, that is exactly what some leaders do - wait. And if no hooking action is forthcoming they will coyly say "Go on, then", perhaps accompanied by an additional little yank. And if that still gives them no joy, they might grumpily say, "Aren't we playing today then?"

She can do a adornment that looks vaguely like a gancho, but it will have completely different underlying mechanics, and will make it more difficult for both the leader and the follower to do ganchos in the future.

Gssh
Do you mean, because both follower and leader will become desensitised to the proper lead and body mechanics for a gancho?

I guess on the occasions when they are led well and fit the music ganchos do feel satisfying to do, I like the crispness and definition of them, but this is not usually the case.

Captain Jep said:
I usually shock the lady by not leading the gancho hehe ..
Exactly! If I could lead I'd certainly take a perverse delight in leading something contrary to expectations whilst snatching back control. (IF I could lead....) As a follower I confess I rather like those moments when I'm suddenly guiltily aware that I've somewhat fast-forwarded the following and nothing wakes me up faster than a contrary lead. Oops! Pay attention!
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#25
My own relationship with the gancho is pretty complex - i don't lead it very often when social dancing - it requires good techinque/ a very relaxed leg on the followers side, and impeccable timing and geometry on the leaders side, and a fair amount of space on the side of the dancefloor. When it works it is quite a satisfying move.

Opendoor - i think it is not an illusion, but actually works like that. I mean, boleos work - the leg flies out all on its own -, and they use almost exactly the same mechanics, only that in the gancho the leader has _more_ tools to reverse the followers impulse and shape it (embrace+thigh) than in a linear boleo (only embrace). So it should be easier to achieve this effect. I don't think the force needed it terrifying, it is the same force as needed for a boleo (and yes, for some followers you need an unreasonable amount of force for a boleo, too - i tend to not lead boleos with them :) ).

I think i don't like the "illusion" concept for the gancho because i don't see a reason to dance it that way. I mean, lets compare it to a boleo - if somebody taught a in line boleo using the same concepts that people use for the gancho it would look somewhat like this:

Today we are going to learn the in-line boleo.
Leaders: You take a step forward and collect.
Followers: when the leader collects after a forward step this is a signal for you to kick straight back with your unweighted leg.
Ok, go and practice this!

I would not enjoy doing a boleo like that - no exchange of energy, not impulse, nothing that makes the move more than an external shape. And i doubt that most followers would enjoy boleos if a boleo was explained as "the leader stands still, and you kick".

The more i learn about tango the more i feel that the way tango is learned is completely backwards. Of the four things you see in basically all beginner classess (walk, cross, ocho, gancho) two (cross, gancho) are exceedingly complex and technically demanding, and should imvho not even be attempted by beginners. And then we wonder why beginners look for patterns and signals - what other choice do they have if they are forced to dance a vocabulary that they don't have the slightest chance of dancing using lead and follow?

Gssh
 
#26
Of the four things you see in basically all beginner classess (walk, cross, ocho, gancho)
Gancho is not seen in basically all beginners' classes. Classes advertised hereabouts as social tango dancing - "no show steps" - definitely don't include gancho.
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#27
Classes advertised hereabouts as social tango dancing - "no show steps" - definitely don't include gancho.
I am envious - your milongas must be much more pleasant to dance at than the ones here. What would dancers in the uk consider the basic vocabulary that every social dancer has been exposed to?
Walk, milonguero ocho, ocho cortado, milonguero turn?

Gssh
 
#31
I am envious - your milongas must be much more pleasant to dance at than the ones here.
Where's "here"?

What would dancers in the uk consider the basic vocabulary that every social dancer has been exposed to?
I'd guess (only guess): walk, ocho, giro, cross. I.e. as per BsAs.

Walk, milonguero ocho, ocho cortado, milonguero turn?
I've not heard of "milonguero ocho" and "milonguero turn". I guess those names must comes from one of the branded dance styles in the USA? Here in Europe, the word milonguero doesn't makes sense as a step name qualifier. We don't much have branded styles within tango.
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#33
I, also, have not heard of "milonguero ocho" and "milonguero turn". I guess those names must comes from one of the branded dance styles in the xxx? Here in the States, the word milonguero doesn't makes sense as a step name qualifier. We don't much have branded styles within tango.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#35
I, also, have not heard of "milonguero ocho" and "milonguero turn". I guess those names must comes from one of the branded dance styles in the xxx? Here in the States, the word milonguero doesn't makes sense as a step name qualifier. We don't much have branded styles within tango.
When I've heard milonguero ochos (or milonguero style ochos), it was referring to a way of doing non-dissociated back ochos, with very little pivot, but the lady's foot crosses behind (sort of a diagonal step).

I'm not sure about the term "milonguero turn", but it might just be a rock step turn.
 
#37
These two are the same, and in this case actually no brand (think you had the Susanna-Tete milonguero brand in mind).
No, I had the "milonguero style" brand in mind.

And I'd be amazed to find Tete subscribing to such a brand. He always said danced and taught simply tango de salon. All the Europe workshops I saw from him were described as teaching tango de salon. And FAOD tango de salon is not a style - its a description covering all dancing traditionally done in milongas, as opposed to stage. I think Tete like may would have found offensive the suggestion that any one style could claim to be "milonguero style". Milongueros show many different styles.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#38
Really?? I see branded styles all over Tango USA workshop promos e.g.

http://www.atlantatango.com/susana.html
Susana Miller is the premier international master teacher of the "milonguero" or close embrace style of tango. ... She decoded the milonguero style and made it available and easy for the rest of us.
Susana Miller is Argentine. She is the one credited with creating the term "Milonguero Style". It wasn't an American invention. Most tango organizations will post the Bio that the visiting teacher provides.
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
#40
It's true. At US milongas we all have to have segregate ourselves, and wear clothing that identifies our style of tango. It's expressly forbidden for someone who dances "salon" to dance with someone who dances "nuevo", and "milonguero" dancers just sneer at everyone.

Once a milonguero-style dancer fell in love with a nuevo tanguera. Their tango gangs didn't approve. What commenced was a terrible tragedy. The leaders of the tango gangs declared a rumble. The milonguero dancer tried to stop the dance-fight, but it was all in vain. The leader of his gang was cut down before his eyes, and he struck back, slaying the leader of the neuvos. He tried to flee the city with his lovely tanguera, but never made it out of town. He was cut down with a vicious high-boleo, leaving her heartbroken.
 

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