Allright then, ganchos....

Me

New Member
#41
Well, I've been gone and missed out on some good discussion about ganchos. :)

I think ganchos are important because, when taught correctly, it opens a new awareness of shared space and movement for both dancers, and can be a nice introduction to the follow of recognizing an opportunity for taking a movement or simply letting it pass.

For me, a gancho is lead by giving opportunity - Basically, make the space and give the time. It sounds so easy, but there are just so many endless and creative ways to screw it up, for leads and follows both. It takes a while to master these things.

We are all going to have a dance here and there with somebody who is just learning gancho, so things are going to be rough, but it's just to be expected, IMO. We are always adjusting to each person's different style, or to their skill level. Sometimes this means showing them that things don't work. If the lead expects gancho and doesn't give me the space to do it, he figures this out quickly - It's pretty obvious when there simply isn't a place to go. I don't have to say a word. Depending on the positioning, sometimes I will take a small boleo around my supporting leg. Sometimes he'll be confused by my boleo instead of gancho, so he'll "try again" and depending on the positioning or timing, I'll humor him - a slow attempt at a gancho makes his mistake pretty clear - oh look, no space. Maybe he'll keep trying, but I don't mind. It's the only way to make it work - Keep trying. We've all been there. :) I don't want to blame the gancho, necessarily, nor do I want to write gancho off as a completely unacceptable element for social dance.
 

Ampster

Active Member
#43
It's true. At US milongas we all have to have segregate ourselves, and wear clothing that identifies our style of tango. It's expressly forbidden for someone who dances "salon" to dance with someone who dances "nuevo", and "milonguero" dancers just sneer at everyone.

Once a milonguero-style dancer fell in love with a nuevo tanguera. Their tango gangs didn't approve. What commenced was a terrible tragedy. The leaders of the tango gangs declared a rumble. The milonguero dancer tried to stop the dance-fight, but it was all in vain. The leader of his gang was cut down before his eyes, and he struck back, slaying the leader of the neuvos. He tried to flee the city with his lovely tanguera, but never made it out of town. He was cut down with a vicious high-boleo, leaving her heartbroken.
So, "Somewhere" in the process, did she feel "Pretty... Oh so pretty, and lovely, and gay?" It sounds like a rough tango neighborhood. Subliminal, you must be from the "Westside," perhaps? Which gang ulitimately won? The "El Jets" or the "El Sharks?"
:bouncy:

P.S. Now you've done it... The music is now playing in my head and I'm off to a meeting...
 
#45
Susana Miller is Argentine. She is the one credited with creating the term "Milonguero Style". It wasn't an American invention
I think you'll find it was an invention for the American market. You hear it never in Argentina and rarely in Europe.

Most tango organizations will post the Bio that the visiting teacher provides.
The text I quoted is not the instructor's bio. I see nothing to suggest it is anything but material from the American promoter.
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#46
When I've heard milonguero ochos (or milonguero style ochos), it was referring to a way of doing non-dissociated back ochos, with very little pivot, but the lady's foot crosses behind (sort of a diagonal step).

I'm not sure about the term "milonguero turn", but it might just be a rock step turn.
Thats what i meant - i personally use milonguero as shorthand for "non-dissociated, non-pivoted, but instead crossed"
I.e.:
Milonguero ochos: Both leader and follower keep hips parallel to each other, and orthogonal to the line of dance, follower does back crossess

Milonguero turn: turn with the same principle: follower does not/only minimally dissociate , and walks the turn back cross, sidestep, front cross.
(i am not part of the "giro" brand, so i have to use "turn" instead - dancers who are properly certified and have the licence for it can use that term instead)

Gssh

we spend a whole lot of time on semantics lately, don't we?
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#47
I think you'll find it was an invention for the American market. You hear it never in Argentina and rarely in Europe...
I met Susana in BA in '94, where she was teaching classes at her club. "Milonguero" style was what she called it there. She had not yet been to the US, but I feel certain that she had been to Europe, perhaps Germany.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#49
I think you'll find it was an invention for the American market. You hear it never in Argentina and rarely in Europe.
IMO, you are incorrect.

The text I quoted is not the instructor's bio. I see nothing to suggest it is anything but material from the American promoter.
So you are now claiming to know what Bio was sent to this tango organizer???

You give the appearance that you like to criticize things that you don't know about. It might be easier to take your posts seriously, if you would limit your criticisms to things you actually have first hand knowledge about (either that or find positive things to say).
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#51
we spend a whole lot of time on semantics lately, don't we?
Seems that way...

What makes it more frustrating is that often I think some of the people posting actually do know what is meant and are not seeking clarification. They want to quibble the semantics and/or create friction.

I've just about had enough.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#52
Thats what i meant - i personally use milonguero as shorthand for "non-dissociated, non-pivoted, but instead crossed"
I.e.:
Milonguero ochos: Both leader and follower keep hips parallel to each other, and orthogonal to the line of dance, follower does back crossess

Milonguero turn: turn with the same principle: follower does not/only minimally dissociate , and walks the turn back cross, sidestep, front cross.
Yes, that's how I use the terms as well. I don't really care who invented the term or what country legitimately can claim it if any.

Note that it means that in this definition a "milonguero ocho" is NOT an ocho cortado. A "milonguero ocho cortada" would employ the same body mechanics to do a different step than an ocho.

It seems that there is quite a bit of variation of what people refer to as an ocho cortado anyway. Perhaps that deserves its own thread because I am realizing that what I think it is, and what I teach it to be, is apparently not always what others think it is and the discrepancy sems to go beyond a stylistic difference.
 
#53
So you are now claiming to know what Bio was sent to this tango organizer???
I am not - hence "I see nothing to suggest ..." - but unless you DO know what bio was sent, you've no evidence to support your rebuttal.

However I hope you'll forgive considerable scepticism when it comes to the USA promotion of Susanna Miller, given it's repeated claim that BA's Clarin newspaper called her "one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango" - a claim shown beyond reasonable doubt to be false.
 
#54
Milonguero ochos: Both leader and follower keep hips parallel to each other, and orthogonal to the line of dance, follower does back crossess
Er, why is that not just "back crosses"? What's it got to do with the "8"?? Why complicate matters by using new redundant names for established steps???
 

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#58
Er, why is that not just "back crosses"? What's it got to do with the "8"?? Why complicate matters by using new redundant names for established steps???
Sorry, i just want to distinguish the "pivot, backstep, pivot, backstep, pivot" ocho from the "backcross, backcross, backcross" ocho - i am not trying to complicate things. This is danceformus, and i don't have a better idea how to describe things - sure, if everybody here had learned dancing tango going to a neighbourhood milonga in BA i would just say "ocho", and everybody who knew what neighbourhood i came from would know what kind of ocho i was talking about.
I can say "I just dance tango, i just do ochos, and if you want to know what this means you have to know how people in parque avelleneda dance" - but that would be extreme hubris - i did not learn tango by going to neighbourhood milongas in ba, and while my teachers grew up there i didn't (and their style is not purely "neighbourhood" anymore, either). And peoples dance outside of ba is not only differentiated by which parts of ba the first dancers came from, and when, but also who influenced a local culture afterwards, and who the first students were, and so on. This is as rich a tapestry as the barrios of BA, and simply not known to anybody who had not danced there. If somebody said "he is dancing like a typical cambridge tango dancer" i would have no idea what that is - close embrace? open embrace? V? large spaces? small spaces? - if somebody said "i am from njimegen" or "i am from paris" i would have an idea, but that is a knowledge that i simply do not assume is shared between everybody in the whole world who is reading this board. So i think trying to be more descriptive, and more technical is a good idea. What the typical, established "ocho" is varies widely depending which milonga one "grew up" in.

Gssh
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#59
Last edited by a moderator:

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#60
Miguel Angel Zotto and Milena Plebs led the first changes at the beginning of the 90's. When they reconstructed in their spectacle Tango x 2 elements of style of the popular dance, they revealed to inadvertent eyes of the public, the wealth of the world of the milonga. Then, the halls, and the classes of Antonio Todaro, bricklayer and milonguero, with whom Zotto and Plebs had made their meticulous work of stylistic archaeology, began to fill with new customers.
A little later, Susana Miller began her classes at the traditional Club Almagro. Miller (of academic extraction) associated with Cacho Dante (a veteran aficionado) begun from her classes the propagation of which usually is known as the Almagro style - very similar to the typical style of the downtown night clubs of the 40's. Its less demanding requirements gave access even to those who were less fitted naturally, technically or sensitively. And it quickly put on the dance floor an enormous amount of new fans, generating a true leveling off of the dance.

my bolding
 

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