Allright then, ganchos....

Me

New Member
#61
Seems that way...

What makes it more frustrating is that often I think some of the people posting actually do know what is meant and are not seeking clarification. They want to quibble the semantics and/or create friction.

I've just about had enough.
I don't like it, either. I've decided to fight this behavior by ignoring it. If I have a serious problem with a specific person, I'll PM a mod. That way it stays off the boards.

Maybe one day this topic will get back to ganchos...
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#63
I don't like it, either. I've decided to fight this behavior by ignoring it. If I have a serious problem with a specific person, I'll PM a mod. That way it stays off the boards.
I'll see if I can do a better job of following your lead, and try to ignore the bait. It's hard for me, though.

:headwall:
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#65
I would like to think we can discuss tango in an atmosphere of curiosity, inquisitiveness, so we can learn and become better dancers, teachers or students. I imagine that we all know tango cannot be described completely, with any accuracy, but we do our best anyway. This, for me, is so I can expand my understanding. I have no interest in saying that my way is correct, nor that anyone elses way in incorrect. I want to discuss words only to the extent that it helps us to understand another persons thoughts regarding tango.

The only proof of these concepts is how well it works for us on the dance floor.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#66
I would like to think we can discuss tango in an atmosphere of curiosity, inquisitiveness, so we can learn and become better dancers, teachers or students. I imagine that we all know tango cannot be described completely, with any accuracy, but we do our best anyway. This, for me, is so I can expand my understanding. I have no interest in saying that my way is correct, nor that anyone elses way in incorrect. I want to discuss words only to the extent that it helps us to understand another persons thoughts regarding tango.

The only proof of these concepts is how well it works for us on the dance floor.

:banana:

:friend:


:notworth:
:cheers:

:kissme:
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#67
May be that subject is gone/consumed?

Nobody did comment already on this funny scene:
That is funny.

A smidge later in the video (around :18-:20) he leads her to do the gancho alternating with the castigada but manages to do this WITHOUT the over-aggressive pushing away and pulling back in thing that seems to be the common method.

I usually hate this move because its so wild and feels so unsafe (and too much like being thrown into a colgada-like position. I can't imagine it looks good the way I'm usually led in it, and I don't think it looks good when I watch other people doing it. There's no way to do it without opening my legs wide and having my free leg flying around in the air as I'm being alternated in volcada/colgada axis but sideways!

But this example works quite well! She does the sequence tightly and it doesn't look sloppy. Her knees almost stay together I think and there's no sense that he is sending her "away" (colgada -like) to get her to do the 2nd part.

Any tips on how the leader is accomplishing this without all that pushing and pulling armwork and changing axis?
 

Subliminal

Well-Known Member
#68
A smidge later in the video, he leads her to do the gancho alternating with the castigada but manages to do this WITHOUT the over-aggressive pushing away and pulling back in thing that seems to be the common method.

But this example works quite well! Any tips on how the leader is accomplishing this without all that pushing and pulling armwork?
Hmm. I honestly haven't done these moves with my regular teacher, so I don't use them yet. But once I did take a class on a similar move with someone... I think it was Helen La Vikinga? And the lead she told us to use was more like... a sway, towards and away from the follower. Originating from the center and moving down through the legs. The arms were mostly unused, though still supporting the action. She lead me through it once, and it felt like a very solid lead, even though she barely moved.
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#69
That is funny.

A smidge later in the video (around :18-:20) he leads her to do the gancho alternating with the castigada but manages to do this WITHOUT the over-aggressive pushing away and pulling back in thing that seems to be the common method.

I usually hate this move because its so wild and feels so unsafe (and too much like being thrown into a colgada-like position. I can't imagine it looks good the way I'm usually led in it, and I don't think it looks good when I watch other people doing it. There's no way to do it without opening my legs wide and having my free leg flying around in the air as I'm being alternated in volcada/colgada axis but sideways!

But this example works quite well! She does the sequence tightly and it doesn't look sloppy. Her knees almost stay together I think and there's no sense that he is sending her "away" (colgada -like) to get her to do the 2nd part.

Any tips on how the leader is accomplishing this without all that pushing and pulling armwork and changing axis?
I was amused by the invitation to dance soon following. That was no cabeceo.

When I was first learning tango most of my classes were at tango weeks, where sequences were usually taught. I would often ask the teachers, "But how do you lead that step?", and they would often shrug and say, "Well, you just lead it." I thought this was a cop out, but I later learned that amazing things could be led if the lead was subtle enough, and if the followers perception was subtle enough and slow enough. For much of my leading I try to feel where my partner's axis is, and give her leads that do not disturb her axis.

AND, I understand that much of leading is clearly moving my partners axis from one place to another, so no one needs to quarrel with that.
 
#70
Thats what i meant - i personally use milonguero as shorthand for "non-dissociated, non-pivoted, but instead crossed"
Errr.... OK. But that's not a common term where I learn. Which is why I asked what it meant. Before Chrisjj did.

(i am not part of the "giro" brand, so i have to use "turn" instead - dancers who are properly certified and have the licence for it can use that term instead)
:confused: You what?

I'm now Completely Confused.

What's a "giro brand"? Why do you have to be certified to use the correct term? Help?

We spend a whole lot of time on semantics lately, don't we?
Well, in this case, you're using (clearly) localised terminology which is (clearly) confusing.
 
#71
However I hope you'll forgive considerable scepticism when it comes to the USA promotion of Susanna Miller, given it's repeated claim that BA's Clarin newspaper called her "one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango" - a claim shown beyond reasonable doubt to be false.
Maybe, but so what? Frankly, I don't give a monkey's about the reputation of someone I've barely heard of.

And it's not like everyone else avoids hyping themselves up or anything - every random stranger with a ponytail and a foreign accent seems to come along to teach in London as The Greatest Maestro Ever.

So, I just CBB.
 
#72
May be that subject is gone/consumed?

Nobody did comment already on this funny scene:
Oh My God!

This milonguero goes up to a woman deep in conversation with El Scruffio, and interrupts her! And he then asks her to dance! Good God, it's like Ceroc. :D

I knew all this cabaceo nonsense was fiction all along :)
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#76
When I was first learning tango most of my classes were at tango weeks, where sequences were usually taught. I would often ask the teachers, "But how do you lead that step?", and they would often shrug and say, "Well, you just lead it." I thought this was a cop out, but I later learned that amazing things could be led if the lead was subtle enough, and if the followers perception was subtle enough and slow enough. For much of my leading I try to feel where my partner's axis is, and give her leads that do not disturb her axis.

AND, I understand that much of leading is clearly moving my partners axis from one place to another, so no one needs to quarrel with that.
"Well, you just lead it"
???? Yeah... major cop-out! Its bad enough when students don't realize that the whole point is not to memorize steps but rather learn to lead each element of them, but when instructors don't even know how to respond when someone asks the right questions, that's pretty sad.

The axis thing... I'm not taking issue with the whole axis thing in general. Some things are naturally led to take the follower off balance (volcadas and colgadas)

However, I get the impression from the quick example in the early part of this video that a yin-yang of balance change is not required in order to alternate a gancho with a castigada (or front boleo?) in this position.

It seems like it might be using a rotational movement rather than an in and away and return movement. (I'm also having to watch it without sound)

This combination is very popular here and I don't like the way it looks or feels when I've had it led or watched locals doing it. I'm trying to figureout how to make it work in this more controlled and elegant way.
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#78
"Well, you just lead it"
???? Yeah... major cop-out! Its bad enough when students don't realize that the whole point is not to memorize steps but rather learn to lead each element of them, but when instructors don't even know how to respond when someone asks the right questions, that's pretty sad.

The axis thing... I'm not taking issue with the whole axis thing in general. Some things are naturally led to take the follower off balance (volcadas and colgadas)

However, I get the impression from the quick example in the early part of this video that a yin-yang of balance change is not required in order to alternate a gancho with a castigada (or front boleo?) in this position.

It seems like it might be using a rotational movement rather than an in and away and return movement. (I'm also having to watch it without sound)

This combination is very popular here and I don't like the way it looks or feels when I've had it led or watched locals doing it. I'm trying to figureout how to make it work in this more controlled and elegant way.
I once heard a description that made sense to me. It's like holding a towel in the air with hands on two corners. When you twist the towel, the lower part begins to twist slightly latently, then over-twists slightly beyond where the actual lead went.
 

Angel HI

Well-Known Member
#79
See what happens when one goes away for just a week? A lot of good discussion is missed. Just wish to add....

Firstly, the issue with gancho is that 1- it should never be taught in a beginners' class anyway, 2- it should only be taught as a follow-through or adorno, and 3- most importantly, we should not be discussing when to do it, but how to do correctly. This is what is missing regardless of when it is taught. A beginner might be able to do it if the how were taught rther than the gancho itself.
I've not heard of "milonguero ocho" and "milonguero turn". I guess those names must comes from one of the branded dance styles in the USA?
I have been in AT since the mid 80's; have heard this term many, many times beginning in the mid 90's. Oddly enough, all of the times that I heard this were from argentines; one of them being Susanna.

Sorry, i just want to distinguish the "pivot, backstep, pivot, backstep, pivot" ocho from the "backcross, backcross, backcross" ocho - i am not trying to complicate things.
No need to apologize; you are correct. These are 2 completely different steps. The problem is simple. As differing teachers teach in differing places, names/terms/classifications/styles get juxtaposed/interchanged/cross-related/inbred. Americans minutely classify everything to a fault. Yes, I accept that a part of this is not a fault, just the need of a student to seperate in order to better understand. The solution is equally as simple. Learn in the manner that is best for you, and STOP criticizing someone else for learning in a manner which is best for them. It is easy for us to understand and accept that there are differences between US/UK english, for example. We even jest about it. Why is it not equally as gratifying to do so in AT?

I would like to think we can discuss tango in an atmosphere of curiosity, inquisitiveness, so we can learn and become better dancers, teachers or students. I imagine that we all know tango cannot be described completely, with any accuracy, but we do our best anyway. This, for me, is so I can expand my understanding. I have no interest in saying that my way is correct, nor that anyone elses way in incorrect. I want to discuss words only to the extent that it helps us to understand another persons thoughts regarding tango.

The only proof of these concepts is how well it works for us on the dance floor.
I am going to propose that the DF claim this as it's new slogan only replacing the word tango with dance.

Bravo Andabien, bravo!
 
#80
1/4 of the leaders can lead me to do satisfactory ganchos
1/3 of the leaders never try ganchos
1/4 of the leaders try ganchos and then try to send me back to school
the remaining 1/6 whispers to my ear "gancho" half a second before it happens and smiles afterward.
 

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