Ballroomization of argentine tango?

sixela

Well-Known Member
#41
A 'step' 'outlawed'? This, in the dance that has no steps and no rules?
There are rules, like "don't bump into others you can't see".

Mind you, that step is not forbidden, as long as it's not a mile wide and straight against the line of dance when you don't know where the couple behind you is (they are supposed not to tailgate you and leave you enough room for a turn or short backstep, or a slightly longer backstep that is diagonal to the line of dance).

Side steps as seen on the USAT2013 competition -- across the floor and so long you change lanes -- are also Not Done on a crowded floor, for the same reason.
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#43
LOL I still dont get it. You are saying these people enter competitions and cannot dance?
...well.

It all depends on your definition of 'good', of course. If you define it as 'able to get good scores from judges at the USAT2013 competition', I suspect our statements may seem puzzling, but if you accept that is probably not our definition, not so.

Most of us are stubborn and prefer a team of mustangs to an orderly column of camels (who as you know are horses designed by committee), i.e. value personality over uniformity.
 

UKDancer

Well-Known Member
#44
.. as long as it's not a mile wide and straight against the line of dance when you don't know where the couple behind you is ...
There's a fallacy here: a back step is a back step, and you can never see behind you. Unless the step is taken immediately following a 'let's have a look around' turn, then a back step to centre is just as likely to lead to a lane-changing collision as one of those daft big side steps.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with stepping in any direction, as long as you know there's space, and you are not unduly holding up the ronda at a time when you should be moving progressively.
 

Bailamosdance

Well-Known Member
#45
Got a link to see some of the competitors? I certainly understand your thoughts and competing vs social dance, but am unsure if I buy the argument that everyone who enters a competition cannot dance.
 

sixela

Well-Known Member
#47
Some of these are undoubtedly good dancers, but as someone said, the restrictive format, the obsession about aesthetic minutiae, the desire to please the judges and the fear of making mistakes (and thus the fear of taking risks) often neuters even their dance.

I can't even blame the judges; perhaps they'd reward an idiosyncratic but creative couple. But this kind of competition seems to attract dancers with a (hopefully temporary) herd mentality. They enter to become a 'true representative of _the_ tango' and often don't dance _their_ tango.

There were invited performing couples. The funny ones were those dancing salón (for performance) but who'd have gotten red cards if they would gave been competing for 'forbidden moves' even though they were spirited and impeccably timed.
 
#48
Got a link to see some of the competitors? I certainly understand your thoughts and competing vs social dance, but am unsure if I buy the argument that everyone who enters a competition cannot dance.
Nobody said "everyone". Moreover, some actually manage to dance in spite of everything.
But the general level of dancing is very low, and many of the competitors have virtually no idea what tango is.
 

twnkltoz

Well-Known Member
#50
Got a link to see some of the competitors? I certainly understand your thoughts and competing vs social dance, but am unsure if I buy the argument that everyone who enters a competition cannot dance.
I don't think that's what they're saying. It's just that winning competitions does not automatically mean they are good dancers.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#51
...You are saying these people enter competitions and cannot dance?
The new markets in asia require tango titles and medals. Before this development started only the rumor qualified a good dancer/teacher..
...unsure if I buy the argument that everyone who enters a competition cannot dance.
Most couples of that US salon finals used to dance quite well. But in some other national competitions the field is quite poor (in number and in style).
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#53
LOL I still dont get it. You are saying these people enter competitions and cannot dance?
Basically, it has to do with style preferences. A common stereotype is that performers & etc., are lousy social dancers. While this is certainly true for some, it is absolutely not true for others.

Competitions are about the looks. Villa Urquiza style (with it's emphasis on the look) is generally what wins the salon competitions. If it was about the feel, they'd have the judges dance with the various competitors.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#54
There's a fallacy here: a back step is a back step, and you can never see behind you. Unless the step is taken immediately following a 'let's have a look around' turn, then a back step to centre is just as likely to lead to a lane-changing collision as one of those daft big side steps.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with stepping in any direction, as long as you know there's space, and you are not unduly holding up the ronda at a time when you should be moving progressively.
The couple behind you is supposed to allow enough room for a molinete. That much space should allow for a small backstep.

Also, the leader can't see behind him, but the follower often can unless she has her eyes closed in that whole "tango bliss" thing. (orhas her headturned tot he right)

(But you know all that... I'm just replying for the sake of the discussion)
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#56
It would probably help the people asking questions if those who say "the dancers on the video aren't good" gave some specific critiques. There has to be more to it than just "the beginning side steps are too wide", which, technically, since there ISN"T anyone in the "next lane" is not enough to constitute "bad dancing"
 
#57
It would probably help the people asking questions if those who say "the dancers on the video aren't good" gave some specific critiques. There has to be more to it than just "the beginning side steps are too wide", which, technically, since there ISN"T anyone in the "next lane" is not enough to constitute "bad dancing"
There is more to it on that thread, for example, dancing not fitting the music.
More detailed specific critique would involve naming names and pointing fingers.
 

Zoopsia59

Well-Known Member
#58
There is more to it on that thread, for example, dancing not fitting the music.
More detailed specific critique would involve naming names and pointing fingers.
Now I'm totally confused.Aren't we talking about the video on THIS thread? And as for pointing fingers, we dissect videos all the time with people saying things about the dancing and what we do or don't like about it. There's no need for names. Most if us don't know the names anyway and I can't even read the numbers. It's "the couple with the red dress" etc

Unless I am misunderstanding the thread and posts, I don't find any value in everyone acting horrified by the dancing in a video and then when others come in and say "What's wrong with it?" simply saying "We shouldn't point fingers"
 
#60
Now I'm totally confused.Aren't we talking about the video on THIS thread? And as for pointing fingers, we dissect videos all the time with people saying things about the dancing and what we do or don't like about it. There's no need for names. Most if us don't know the names anyway and I can't even read the numbers. It's "the couple with the red dress" etc
I know all the names, and I am personally acquainted with about 90% of those people, so I guess I shall pass.


Unless I am misunderstanding the thread and posts, I don't find any value in everyone acting horrified by the dancing in a video and then when others come in and say "What's wrong with it?" simply saying "We shouldn't point fingers"
I don't thing that's what is going on here. Many people mentioned that many (not all) participants' dancing is unmusical, uncreative, full of cliches, overly careful, lots of awkward posing, pretending instead of actually dancing. That's bad enough to me.
 

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