Been Diss'ed?

Gssh

Well-Known Member
#41
Typically a follower wanting to go apilado and I stay on my axis and don't give any support.
Isn't that a bit impolite? I say that as a leader who mostly dances apilado-ish, and in the parallel situation when a follower wants to open up the embrace/not counterbalance me i let her do that - i would feel weird squishing a woman against myself if she was struggling to get away.
(I will probably not ask her to dance again if our stylistic preferences are that different, but i usually try to get through the tanda at least somewhat gracefully, and i have a few good friends that i only dance in my non-preferred style with, because that way we both have fun)

Gssh
 
#42
Yeah.. I can appreciate those situations. But that was not the case in the story I related. He was quite obviously avoiding making eye contact with me and then pretended at the end of the night that it was a regrettable misfortune that somehow kept us from getting a tanda together. That's what irked me far more than him not dancing with me. It's not like I cornered him for an explanation or even approached him in any way at the end of the night. He's snubbed me pretty much every time I've ever seen him, so to pretend that he WANTED to dance with me and just didn't get a chance was insultingly insincere.
Similar situations. I felt insulted when someone deliberately turning their back towards me as if I would hunt them down with my Caboceo...I am still quite shy about Caboceo, this kind of experience make it even harder to send the hint to leaders I would like to dance with...my recent milonga experience is more on passively avoid (avoid and be avoided) than actively seeking dances.
 

jantango

Active Member
#45
Similar situations. I felt insulted when someone deliberately turning their back towards me as if I would hunt them down with my Caboceo...I am still quite shy about Caboceo, this kind of experience make it even harder to send the hint to leaders I would like to dance with...my recent milonga experience is more on passively avoid (avoid and be avoided) than actively seeking dances.
If you arrive at a milonga with dance shoes, everyone knows you are there to dance. It's always a ladies' choice. The way to indicate that choice is by looking in someone's direction. You don't have to wave or indicate anything with your hand. I know what you mean by avoiding certain men. The cabeceo starts with making eye contact and then a nod that makes it mutual. If you don't turn your head to make eye contact, you can't be invited.

Eye contact is part of everyday life while walking the streets. You'll feel more comfortable with practice.
 

pygmalion

Well-Known Member
#46
If you arrive at a milonga with dance shoes, everyone knows you are there to dance. It's always a ladies' choice. The way to indicate that choice is by looking in someone's direction. You don't have to wave or indicate anything with your hand. I know what you mean by avoiding certain men. The cabeceo starts with making eye contact and then a nod that makes it mutual. If you don't turn your head to make eye contact, you can't be invited.

Eye contact is part of everyday life while walking the streets. You'll feel more comfortable with practice.
I hear ya, jan, but not where I live. Where I live, making eye contact with a stranger is not done. Period. And as more and more people live in big cities,I suspect that there may be more people with a similar day to day experience.
 

jfm

Active Member
#47
Eye contact is part of everyday life while walking the streets. You'll feel more comfortable with practice.
LOL! Wandering around London or somewhere like San Francisco or even beunos aires in my experience making eye contact with men on the street does not end happily. Nothing like having something vile shouted at you or being followed down the road. Perhaps I'm stunningly beautiful or maybe I look like a working girl, but funnily enough a lot of women who are neither get the same treatment. In fact that might be one of the reasons cabeceo is not the primary medium in many countries. Women are so used to avoiding the gaze of strange men, cabeceo goes against a woman's instinct for self protection.
 

jfm

Active Member
#49
Steve, I know you mean well, but I'll point out for the benefit of anybody who read my post and thought "they should take it as a compliment":
When the working girls call stuff to you, you don't walk away feeling dirty, or worse afraid that you are going to be dragged into an alley and raped.
 
#52
If you arrive at a milonga with dance shoes, everyone knows you are there to dance. It's always a ladies' choice. The way to indicate that choice is by looking in someone's direction. You don't have to wave or indicate anything with your hand. I know what you mean by avoiding certain men. The cabeceo starts with making eye contact and then a nod that makes it mutual. If you don't turn your head to make eye contact, you can't be invited.
Eye contact is part of everyday life while walking the streets. You'll feel more comfortable with practice.
I feel comfortable with people I dance with often and both know for sure that we like to dance with each other. Cabeceo works for me in that situation. For the few men I try to avoid, they would walk right in front of me. The only escape for me then was to look at my feet. I don't ever corner a leader like this but why some of them are so afraid (of facing me or even to let me be in their peripheral vision)?
 
#53
...in many countries. Women are so used to avoiding the gaze of strange men, cabeceo goes against a woman's instinct for self protection.
I think you are right. It is against my instinct. I make a special effort at milonga, but can easily get discouraged and give up.
 

dchester

Moderator
Staff member
#54
Steve, I know you mean well, but I'll point out for the benefit of anybody who read my post and thought "they should take it as a compliment":
When the working girls call stuff to you, you don't walk away feeling dirty, or worse afraid that you are going to be dragged into an alley and raped.
You are correct that guys don't feel that way, and thus we (guys) don't intuitively understand the scope of when women might feel that way at times.

I don't have a solution, unfortunately.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#55
jfm, you did see in the article that I linked to that there is a distinction between an "innocent" complement and what you are referring to? I hope you don't think I don't understand the difference.

And, you know, I very consciously stayed away from comments about eye contact in cities, because I don't live in one, and I'm not a woman. But I will ask a question. How do you maintain "situational awareness" without scanning your environment and the people in it?
 

jfm

Active Member
#56
The "innocent" ones are very rare. Mostly it's things like "sexy", "slut", "give me/I want to [insert sex act here]" or following you own the road harrassing you about going for coffee. Even one that sounds innocuous like "smile!" is pretty annoying to a lot of women. In fact any comment at all on your body or appearance by a stranger is intimidating and unwelcome to many. When some spanish schoolboys yelled "mamacita" at me a few weeks ago I wanted disappear.
You can walk around seeing your surroundings without catching someone's eye pretty easily. After a few years of car beeping, grabbing and comments that make you feel ashamed of your clothing (even if you are wearing a floor length potato sack) or body you learn to direct your gaze over a man's shoulder as you walk by even if he's directly in front. We're not walking around staring at the ground the whole time!
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#57
Given that women live in those cultures, let's say Buenos Aires in particular, how do they deal with it?

When you, (other women, too) are in, say, a cafe or a nice, quiet, safe pub like place, you catch the eye of the server or bar tender, or not, no?

And I keep coming back to not walking into other people when you are walking towards each other, something that happens constantly in subways, on side walks and in cross walks, etc. I glance at someones eyes to get a read on where they are going. I have read many times that it was the default method? Again, not catching someone's eye, just glancing or scanning.

I'm sort of chuckling at myself here, thinking about the "small town" cousin (me) visting the big city. Had an interesting experience with that in Hong Kong a few years back. And then there was that time I visited a friend in San Francisco.
 

jfm

Active Member
#58
No Steve, it is not because you are a 'small town cousin', it is because you are a man.

Steve I LIVE IN THAT CULTURE
Do you honestly think it is a 'Latin American' thing? What the hell? The word for in in the UK and India is "Eve teasing".
As a native Londoner often I shout back or mock them if it seems safe to do so, most of the time I ignore it. Just because it happens all the time doesn't make it ok. Why don't you do a full survey asking every woman between 15 and say 40 if she likes random men in the street making comments about her body? There will be a few older ladies who feel it is some kind of badge of honor, but a quick poll around the girls I know puts it as "I hate it".
Obviously I am not saying that I never look anybody in the eye, it's just something that many women tend not to do. From numerous post over the last several years I have made it clear that I use Mirada/cabeceo.

If a woman is saying to you:
When a man I do not know or do not know well makes a comment about my appearance uninvited it makes me feel at least uncomfortable and often unsafe

do you think it is really ok to tell her that she is wrong about her own experience?
 

jfm

Active Member
#59
oh an also even in BA a lot of the younger dancers don't use cabeceo if they are there to dance with people they know, they text each other.
 
#60
I was around twenty years old in the beginning of 70's and remember that it was positive, exiting those times when someone was whistling after me. Or put the engine sound go up on a standing car when i passed by. I know that one of the Argentine ladies who moved to Sweden was complaining about the silence on the streets - she felt that her feminity had disapered when she did not get any reaction on it.

But!

I think the atmosphere is different today. In the end of 90's I gave away my TV and if I occasionally watch something it is an unpleasent experience. I feel that the series are much more cruel, violent and so on compared with the ones 20 years ago. TV is not the reality but it is mirroring the level of acceptance today and the boundaries have been pushed forward. I could think the boundaries have been changed on the streets too.
 

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