Dile Que No vs. CBL

#21
Really? I know some moves when it is necessary. I am speaking about some variations of Frisbee (LA style dancer here) when the guy is supposed to switch hands and lead the lady into the free turn. Since most of the times it is hard to grab the fingers, I just grab the wrist and signal the CBL with left turn. :)

But generally I do not lead or like to be led by the wrists.

Yes, leading by the wrist is a fine way to lead some moves. Maybe even necessary.

But the leader should never grab the wrist like holding on to the wrist. Always keep some space between the hand and the wrist, so you don’t twist the lady’s skin, or make bruises. It is often possible to lead with an open hand, just making contact with the side of the wrist.
 
#22
Yes, leading by the wrist is a fine way to lead some moves. Maybe even necessary.

But the leader should never grab the wrist like holding on to the wrist. Always keep some space between the hand and the wrist, so you don’t twist the lady’s skin, or make bruises. It is often possible to lead with an open hand, just making contact with the side of the wrist.
Our rueda instructor always teaches us to lead Dame Con Las Manos by the wrists. I prefer doing by the hand as the name of the move suggests!
 

tj

New Member
#23
It is interesting to see how things are different in rueda depending on the school you're taking classes at. I've been lucky in that the stuff I learned in Denver seems to be pretty compatible with the school here in Atlanta. Probably because they have common roots learning from schools in Miami.

One of the timing issues with calls is that you want to give everyone else in the circle the chance to understand what move is coming, and give them enough time to prep. Thus, moves need to be called not so early as to make you rush, nor not so late that you miss the count where the move begins.
 
#24
huh! I have called sombrero from DQN and people do not have a problem at all. None. Nada. I have not a clue what you are talking about. I have never had an issue of people facing the wrong direction no matter what move I call out or in what order I do so.
Same for me. There are specific calls to change the direction of the Rueda. Devane, it seems you are suggesting they are different moves when in fact they are just variations of the same move e.g. Dile Que No in different contexts. Cubans by nature usually call all variations of something by the same name. A Dile Que No is a Dile Que No no matter where you do it from - the position of how you begin it or end it. True variations often have 'con' something. Usually with amusing results.

Although I'm aware different schools in Cuba have different ways of dancing and names of the same moves I've never seen or heard of anything like you've been describing regarding your directional problems. Perhaps you could post some video so we could understand more clearly this different style?

p.s. Our instructors come from Havana too, we dance often with Osbanis and have instructors like Raphael and Janet visit from time to time.
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#25
Yeah. I've learnt the style from Miami as well as the one from CUba, havana...and both seem similar and very different from what devane is suggesting. Also seen numerous clips on the web from Israel, germany, Netherlands, Singapore etc...and none are like Devane's unique style. Would be interesting to see actually clips of this "new" style.
 
#26
Yeah. I've learnt the style from Miami as well as the one from CUba, havana...and both seem similar and very different from what devane is suggesting. Also seen numerous clips on the web from Israel, germany, Netherlands, Singapore etc...and none are like Devane's unique style. Would be interesting to see actually clips of this "new" style.
Haven't got time at the moment to address this properly. I'm going out.
I'll do it properly tomorrow.

I can assure you there isn't a "Direction problem" as far as the dancers are concerned. Beginners from the moment they have learned DQN (con guapea) start applying it in Rueda no problem . The dancers do not have to pay attention to direction (except for long sequences). They just follow what they hear. They don't need to worry about this things. That's why people trying to be the caller for the 1st time get confused when they call sombrero.

But the caller must know that certain moves can't start directly from la guapea ie Sombrero & Evelyn : they need an enchufa beforehand to set you in the right direction. I have a list somewhere but offhand there are not many that need that preamble. Siete, siete complicado, vacilense etc don't need it. It's not that hard to do, you just have to be aware of it. It obviously stems from the application.

This is not MY style or a NEW or UNIQUE style :nope: .
The other local school is compatible . The teacher from that school must go to Cuba 3-4 times a year who comes back with some moves that has you in knots.
1 other Cuban guest a few years back but a few minor differences (99% the same). A Brazilian woman who teaches in another county, the same 99%.
The last congress I went to was the same ( I didn't go though, I don't know who it was, there were a few rueda classes).

I've been to 2 seminars where things were completely different though and it's a nightmare.
ps
I recently started LA style here. The teacher teaches Rueda but I haven't seen it yet.


I'm sure a girl won't have a problem following it. That's if you follow in rueda, I feel in Rueda the lady moves by herself and I can only lead if the woman doesn't know the call. That's another thread I think.

I don't known a video camera and my phone makes phone call only ( I'm due a free upgrade I think but phones aren't great as cameras?)
But the next time I go ( I go the AT instead now) I'll try to find out if anyone has some footage. I'm sure there is something.

ps
My Tango teacher is from Buenos Aires . I don't know what style is it.

Maybe dance should have version numbers like Software? :cool:
 

tj

New Member
#27
But the caller must know that certain moves can't start directly from la guapea ie Sombrero & Evelyn : they need an enchufa beforehand to set you in the right direction. I have a list somewhere but offhand there are not many that need that preamble. Siete, siete complicado, vacilense etc don't need it. It's not that hard to do, you just have to be aware of it. It obviously stems from the application.

This is not MY style or a NEW or UNIQUE style :nope: . The other local school is compatible .
Just to let you know, this is "new" & "unique" to those of us in the US. It may be standardized in your region, but obviously, it'll vary from country to country.

For our "local style", we don't need to do an enchufla before a sombrero or an Evelyn. So obviously, YMMV. It'll depend on how the majority of the dancers understand what comprises the move.
 
#28
Regarding the teachings Cubans, they are all Cuban dance champions and they have all studied at some famous Cuban dance academy, because that what sells and what people want to hear. Make your own opinion, and see what they can teach you.

Beside a few standard calls, there’s no standard calls in Cuba. Only Miami have tried to make a standard. So when someone comes home from Cuba and say they do this move in Cuba, and it got that name, they are right. But on the next corner in Havana it’s a different move, different name or pretty unknown.


That's the way we do it but at the end they are standing side by side (facing the circle. When one learns DQN for the 1st time this is the version you learn. We do have a DQN where you face each other at the end, basically a CBL.
Same name different move.
Yes, I can follow you here. Do the same dancing Rueda de casino. Basically letting the back connection go, and not turning all the way to face the lady.


The teacher keeps reminding the guys to move out of the way in this case BUT it is labeled DQN too! because of recent congresses they say "CBL" also (but they're not really doing a cbl LA style). But that is different from the DQN used in rueda or at the end of a sequence, you are facing the centre of a circle, not each other.
It’s ok to break away form the lady to give her space, and giving some room to play.. But the lady will properly still walk in a circle or triangle around you, depending on the lead. (You can even push her out on 3, for styling and play, before leading on 5) The cross body dancers will walk on the line using the given space, and then turn.

The dile que no can also be lead only by hand to hand, and is common used in rueda de casino too.

You are facing the same direction (facing the centre on the circle) standing side by side, the guy on the right.
1,2,3 : Girl steps back on her right, exactly the same as your basic, coming back to neutral on 3. The guy mirrors the move going back on his left.

5,6,7: Girl steps forward on her left, turning towards her partner.
On the 5 you push him slightly away with your left hand. This is the "QUE NO".
Dile le Que No, tell him no. It comes from this part of the move.
Your 6,7 you return back, standing side by side facing the circle. the guy mirrors your motion.

In Rueda you continue doing this last part until another call is made.
In dancing some guys who don't know many moves will do this end part for ever or about 50% of a song. I personally do 1 and go....
This sounds like the rueda de casino basic, or Cuban basic. This have many name, many styles and many variation and ways to play with. This is not the dile que no or part of it. “This is the QUE NO” is new to me, and is properly a pretty local interoperation.

Note in rueda if the caller calls something on the 5,6,7 you keep this direction(square up) and go from there. The centre of the circle is North (1,2,3) and your 5 is East (Girl), your next move starts from this direction.
Yes. Unless you are in closed position and a call start from there. (Or from the leaders gathered in the circle or whatever)

They call "Sombrero" from DQN which ends people facing the wall wondering what happened. I've seen this a few times.
I call that, this works without problems. You got me puzzled here!!!!!!!!


Even when I sit in on a class and there learning a simple move like "Setenta Complicado" I start in reference to the circle.
In rueda de casino everything is in reference to the circle. I know 5 different versions of Setenta. I won’t start counting versions of Setenta Complicado.
 
#30
Just to let you know, this is "new" & "unique" to those of us in the US. It may be standardized in your region, but obviously, it'll vary from country to country.

For our "local style", we don't need to do an enchufla before a sombrero or an Evelyn. So obviously, YMMV. It'll depend on how the majority of the dancers understand what comprises the move.
This is new to me too.
 
#31
Just to let you know, this is "new" & "unique" to those of us in the US. It may be standardized in your region, but obviously, it'll vary from country to country.
Ok, I'm back
I think the mystery is solved.


I'm guessing you do sombreo like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=839lMndQitA

The enchufla is intergrated into the move. He has swaped sides and can DQN from here.
We do have that version of the move. It is the last Sombrero in a sequence called "Tres Sombreros". I would comment it looks a lot softer than our regular sombrero.

The other version.....

The version we have the sombrero is static and thus enchufla is needed as a preamble.
I have a clip of this version (3MB)(more or less, from 0 to 11 sec is the same).
The identity of the dancers in the clip also prove it is not "Local" or "Mine".
I PM'ed the last few names on here.



Disclaimer:
Under Copyright Law this falls under the term "Fair Use" is therefore NOT an infringement. Also it is not public ( I pm'ed it) and not significant enough anyway so nobody would care. So there:tongue:
Ex-Legal Exec in a funny mood today. :cool:
 
#32
Really? I know some moves when it is necessary. I am speaking about some variations of Frisbee (LA style dancer here) when the guy is supposed to switch hands and lead the lady into the free turn. Since most of the times it is hard to grab the fingers, I just grab the wrist and signal the CBL with left turn. :)

But generally I do not lead or like to be led by the wrists.
Interesting that there is a functional reason for this. Yes you would get a different feeling from this. But I see it also used when doing simple things like the basic steps. It's just not nice too look at.
Also I'm sure you have met guys who are a bit heavy-handed with their dancing. Isn't it pretty easy to get red/bruised wrists.

Hah!!! Thank you! You want to come up here and tell some of the guys around here that?
The only feeling I get when I look at it that the guy is wrestling with a woman who has a knife in her hand. "She's got a knife" :D

NOTE This is not the recommended way to disarm a knife knife wielding assailant. Even though some Martial Arts teach this :confused: . Use a chair, a coat or run away....and study filipino arts.

I've seen it too when they're doing a basic so it's not just a functional reason for some moves.
Just making an observation on how it looks.
 

tj

New Member
#33
Ok, I'm back
I think the mystery is solved.


I'm guessing you do sombreo like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=839lMndQitA

The enchufla is intergrated into the move. He has swaped sides and can DQN from here.
Yes, that's basically it, although the styling and timing is mildly different.

What's confusing for us, is that you use the term "the enchufla is integrated", and by my definition of enchufla, there is none present in that particular video.

The footwork's name that we use is hecho, where the guy walks around the lady.

Then again, YMMV, and it depends on the school/instructor.
 

Sagitta

Well-Known Member
#34
Yes, that's basically it, although the styling and timing is mildly different.

What's confusing for us, is that you use the term "the enchufla is integrated", and by my definition of enchufla, there is none present in that particular video.

The footwork's name that we use is hecho, where the guy walks around the lady.

Then again, YMMV, and it depends on the school/instructor.
ditto.
 
#35
Yes, that's basically it, although the styling and timing is mildly different.

What's confusing for us, is that you use the term "the enchufla is integrated", and by my definition of enchufla, there is none present in that particular video.

The footwork's name that we use is hecho, where the guy walks around the lady.

Then again, YMMV, and it depends on the school/instructor.
nah
I just glanced at it and saw he got to the otherside. It's hard to study youtube videos. The bar doesn't freeze and slide along too well. But you see what I mean the step he used served the purpose of switching sides. With this other version you need the enchufla first to get your barings right and avoid facing the wall.
We can also agree that this version of Enchufla is NOT local but a variant. Unless the dancers involved came over here and borrowed it. This version may be a bit choppy though. The other looks more elegant and put less pressure on the girl.
 

tj

New Member
#36
nah
I just glanced at it and saw he got to the otherside. It's hard to study youtube videos. The bar doesn't freeze and slide along too well. But you see what I mean the step he used served the purpose of switching sides. With this other version you need the enchufla first to get your barings right and avoid facing the wall.
Yeah, this is his variant. The way that we've been taught, you don't step back on the one and do an Enchufla, but a side step to the left (on the 1) after a tap on 8. Thus the term "hecho" footwork.

We can also agree that this version of Enchufla is NOT local but a variant.
I don't particularly make a difference between the terms local vs variant. To me they mean the same thing. Whatever the local scene's variation, that's the "proper" way to do the step in that region/school/locality.

Then again, a lot of it is compatible, provided that basic lead/follow technique translates.
 
#37
I just had an opportunity to look at the video. Thx

Neither of the videos fit with the version I know from casino.
The public posted version looks like it, but start different, with the lady turning on the spot, and the guy walking around her.

The private is a cross-body/NY/LA as in not Cuban style, and is started from a cross hand position.

The version I know looks more like this, where the lead is prepped on 8 and lead on one. (Fit in what I locally call eight one figures, The footwork is the same as the common casino figure called vasilala).

Video

http://www.billqvist.de/single/sombrero.avi


Enchufa looks something like this, including the partner shift.

http://www.billqvist.de/par/enchufe.avi

The necessary enchufa devane talk about if not necessary for me, and if called “enchufa, sombrero” would result in a partner shift, and the sombrero.


For me the sombrero explained down with words like this

Sombrero
Lead/pull her arm forward and out on 8, so she don’t step back on 1
Turn her clockwise on 1 and shift to left hand as she start the first turn.
Get her free hand right after the shift. and lead the 1 3/4 turn with both hands
She will walk trough the turns, while leader move a little to the left, shifting sides.
Arms in butterfly position on the shoulders on 7.
Dile Que No

The videos is from http://es.wikibooks.org/wiki/Baile:_Salsa:_Rueda_de_Casino
 
#39
Just to let you know, this is "new" & "unique" to those of us in the US. It may be standardized in your region, but obviously, it'll vary from country to country.

For our "local style", we don't need to do an enchufla before a sombrero or an Evelyn. So obviously, YMMV. It'll depend on how the majority of the dancers understand what comprises the move.
Yep, same here. Quite happliy to a sombrero or Evelyn from "casino basic" or guapea, as taught by my local instructor and an instructor from London (Moe Flex). The latest videos look spot on.
 

tj

New Member
#40
Yeah, I agree. Danish Guy's videos match up with the way I've been taught it. (including the little tap w/the left foot that the guy does on 8 at the beginning of the sombrero).
 

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