Discussions on following

samina

Well-Known Member
#41
agreed, entirely. (responding to Chris... y'all just posted too fast for me, lol)

BOT... one of the things i've noticed for myself in this journey of becoming a better follower is that the more relaxed i am, the better i am able to follow well. and it's always a very pleasurable thing when it's happening.

when it's not pleasurable, it's either because my mind is too engaged analytically -- not being in the moment -- or because my body lacks the control to be able to match and respond as i should. the more my physique & balance have evolved, the more pleasure is eking into my experience of actually being able to listen to my lead's body & energy...
 

Peaches

Well-Known Member
#42
Okay question for the technically oriented guys, how would you say this without making the contributor feel like an idiot? (no offense Me, just making the point).
Well, eliminating the phrase "demonstrat[ing] a fundamental misunderstanding of [whatever]" from the discussion would be a good place to start.

(See that, Skwiggy, no preface!) I will, however, add a footnote.

*Just IMHO.
 

madmaximus

Well-Known Member
#43
madmaximus said:
Actually, it's raise the eyebrows--at end of one
No way, it's commence to rise. Otherwise your eyebrow would
be impacting your hairline before the teeth are fully gnashed.
*Tsk*
Well, that's SOOOO old school I can't even BEGIN to agree with it!

(And then the emphatic: ) NEIN, NYET, NO!

There's classical style and power style.

I think the commence happens on middle of one--at least my teacher A FORMER WORLD CHAMPION (in-hairline-mechanics-whose-technique-is-never-to-be-questioned-so-there-you-are) told me so.



m


ps...
goodness, people, you guys type fast!
 

Laura

New Member
#44
at least my teacher A FORMER WORLD CHAMPION (in-hairline-mechanics-whose-technique-is-never-to-be-questioned-so-there-you-are) told me so.
Look, I'm not saying that teachers are all-knowing and always correct, I'm just saying that it really pisses me off when someone tells me that I or my teachers are just plain wrong about something based on his (and I use 'his' here on purpose, because it's always a man and usually a specific one) own interpretation of whatever it is we are talking about. Why is it okay for him to tell me that I (and/or my teachers) are wrong or don't understand, yet that his interpretation is correct? Meaning, what makes him any more or less correct than anyone else about some of this stuff, especially stuff related to what I as a follower must feel and think about?

It's argumentative pedantic aspects of the conversations that keep me out of the discussions so much of the time. It makes me feel marginalized and disempowered. Even now, the men on this thread are for the most part ignoring what we women have to say about how we feel about what they've been saying and how they've been saying it, and instead are forging ahead with some joke about eyebrow technique in Tango.
 
#45
But about following... it is hard for me not to write an essay about something that is so simple yet very difficult to do.

In summary: I try, very very hard, to dance my body smart and my brain like an idiot. I hold onto my center and try to stay as balanced as possible, and wait to see where the movement wants me to go. The moment I start trying to guess patterns and intent things go to pieces. (Things are going to go to pieces anyway if the lead is not correct, so why should I throw my brain's opinion into the fray and further mess things up?)

What I try to do is to go exactly where I am asked. The times that I have to just 'give up' are when the lead is very, very new, and 'tells' me nothing at all. (No intent, no full body movement, etc.) Then if it's a chacha for example I just have to rely on reflexes to keep my toes from being nicked. But this does not happen a lot, really.
Me - fantastic. And whats even better is that when I read your post I assumed you were talking about standard - up to the word chacha.

I think you should add:
I try, very very hard, to dance my body smart and my brain like an idiot.
to your sig! Its exactly it.
 

madmaximus

Well-Known Member
#46
Look, I'm not saying that teachers are all-knowing and always correct, I'm just saying that it really pisses me off when someone tells me that I or my teachers are just plain wrong about something based on his (and I use 'his' here on purpose, because it's always a man and usually a specific one) own interpretation of whatever it is we are talking about. Why is it okay for him to tell me that I (and/or my teachers) are wrong or don't understand, yet that his interpretation is correct? Meaning, what makes him any more or less correct than anyone else about some of this stuff, especially stuff related to what I as a follower must feel and think about?

It's argumentative pedantic aspects of the conversations that keep me out of the discussions so much of the time. It makes me feel marginalized and disempowered. Even now, the men on this thread are for the most part ignoring what we women have to say about how we feel about what they've been saying and how they've been saying it, and instead are forging ahead with some joke about eyebrow technique in Tango.
While my purpose was to inject some levity on a truly serious topic, my post was also meant to demonstrate (hopefully in a light-hearted manner) the patent absurdity the type of argumentative discussion that technical arguments sometimes devolve into.

It was not my intent to marginalize, trivialize, nor ignore how one feels about the topic at hand, and do truly apologize if I have slighted in any way.

Standing down from this thread...




m
 

and123

Well-Known Member
#47
Creating a female-only thread would be helpful (which is not to say some males here have not experienced the followers' side of things), but you KNOW the moment we say WOMEN ONLY the guys will flock to it :rolleyes:. Not saying we don't appreciate your input, guys, but sometimes we just need to talk amongst ourselves. Usually, for many of the reasons Laura has stated, I will PM someone about a follower's issue instead of posting if I feel I can shed light on whatever the problem is. We're sharing experiences. There are different ways of visualizing and thinking that can lead to the same endpoint. Tearing apart the physics and mechanics is but one part of the equation.
 
#48
While my purpose was to inject some levity on a truly serious topic, my post was also meant to demonstrate (hopefully in a light-hearted manner) the patent absurdity the type of argumentative discussion that technical arguments sometimes devolve into.

It was not my intent to marginalize, trivialize, nor ignore how one feels about the topic at hand, and do truly apologize if I have slighted in any way.

Standing down from this thread...

m
No you don't! We don't all feel that way and its humour that permits us to be serious -else there woudl be MUCH more offence taken.

Loved your analogy - and I hope you liked the replies (OTOH the one that discussed following WAS ignored... hrumph! :D)
 

skwiggy

Well-Known Member
#49
In all seriousness, the criticism should be that the mis-statement demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the dance figure being described. It's not really about leading at all.
No, you are wrong. You demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of communicating with women. It's not really about dance technique at all.

:uplaugh:

Just kidding. Sort of. :)
 

Gumby

New Member
#50
I was talking about following to a friend at the studio the other day and I realized that I think about following differently depending on whether I am dancing standard or smooth. When I dance standard I try to do what someone said up-thread -try to dance my body smart and my brain stupid. I find I even do that during the closed hold portions of my smooth routines. I'm always surprised by what comes next. However, following in open work in smooth is for me - much more active/participatory/dynamic - I am much more aware of the give and take where-as in closed dance frame I think more about being agressively available.
 

skwiggy

Well-Known Member
#51
However, following in open work in smooth is for me - much more active/participatory/dynamic - I am much more aware of the give and take where-as in closed dance frame I think more about being agressively available.
I try to be as active/participatory/dynamic in Standard as possible. It seems to make my partner smile more. :)
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
#52
Part of the reason why I don't contribute much to the technical discussions is because many times when I do, one or more of the men who dominate the discussion start coming across to me like either I don't know what I'm doing or that my teachers don't know what they're doing. I'm really tired of that, so I just don't bother much unless I'm really really sure I can fully articulate what it is I want to express about the topic.
Yep, that's it right there for me. I almost got in the discussion on that Toni Redpath theory, why there wouldn't be a "bump," but then decided it wasn't worth the trouble. Besides, I'm more of a "feel" and "see" person, and fix things with my teachers saying, "This is what you're doing, you need more of this," while showing me. So for me, it's a struggle to follow a discussion of angles and degrees and planes and the particular toe bone that hits the ground with what degree of force at what particular angle at which split second when I'm a feel and see kind of girl. If you see the smooth technique videos that Toni and Michael did, that's how I think and learn, with the pictures painted for you and you'll feel this and that. But that generally doesn't translate well into a posting on technique points.
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
#53
What annoys me is discourse along the lines of: "No, you are wrong. On page 67 of [insert manual of choice] it clearly states the man should commence to raise his eyebrow on the one, not the two. Clearly, you lack a basic fundamental understanding of lead." This is when I want to start hurting people.
A swift kick in the mouse clicking finger?hehe!
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
#54
It's not so much about domination. It's about being made to feel that what we contribute is wrong. I don't want to have to defend every statement I make, so after awhile I get tired of arguing and just don't bother to make statements in the first place.

cornutt, I never recall you doing anything even remotely like that. Please don't pull back. Your contributions to the discussions are always constructive and positive. Please keep sharing. :)
Totally agree with all of that.

As for "domination," I think it's not so much more men are contributing. It's a select few men come in and battle back and forth over which millisecond they should raise their eyebrow, and when you have 50 posts going back and forth on that, then the individual posts by people that aren't going to argue about the raising of the eyebrow, that just say, "I like it when the eyebrow is raised in a pleasing way as opposed to raised in an ugly way," get drowned out.
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
#56
And most of all, I have enough experience in life and in dance to know that there is more than one way to approach something and to think about something and to discuss something, and that often times seemingly conflicting statements are actually two aspects of addressing the same issue.
You know Laura, if you had a quality teacher, they'd have shown you in the manual how incorrect that statement is.:p
 

Laura

New Member
#57
However, following in open work in smooth is for me - much more active/participatory/dynamic - I am much more aware of the give and take where-as in closed dance frame I think more about being agressively available.
That's a very interesting way of putting it Gumby. I don't have the experience in Smooth that you do, but I think what you're describing is part of what was making my transition to Smooth difficult, I didn't 'get' what you just described.
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
#58
Look, I'm not saying that teachers are all-knowing and always correct, I'm just saying that it really pisses me off when someone tells me that I or my teachers are just plain wrong about something based on his (and I use 'his' here on purpose, because it's always a man and usually a specific one) own interpretation of whatever it is we are talking about. Why is it okay for him to tell me that I (and/or my teachers) are wrong or don't understand, yet that his interpretation is correct? Meaning, what makes him any more or less correct than anyone else about some of this stuff, especially stuff related to what I as a follower must feel and think about?

It's argumentative pedantic aspects of the conversations that keep me out of the discussions so much of the time. It makes me feel marginalized and disempowered. Even now, the men on this thread are for the most part ignoring what we women have to say about how we feel about what they've been saying and how they've been saying it, and instead are forging ahead with some joke about eyebrow technique in Tango.
And what sucks, is when Laura gives an opinion on something, it clicks for me. What I love about having Larinda on this board, is she can say things in the uber-engineered way or in the artsy way. (One of the many reasons she's known for being a fantastic instructor, she can adjust to her student's learning needs.) Any post that has the word "commence" in it, is probably going to come across to me like the teacher from the Peanuts. It's not going "over my head" because I know I'm a smart girl, but I'm not going to spend the time to decipher it into my own language. Like I've said, I'm a see and feel kind of learner, that needs artsy pictures. And I resent that the people I can learn from aren't contributing because some people can't improve their people skills enough to realize that saying someone is stupid is still saying they're stupid, even if you use big words like "fundamental misunderstanding of the concept" to do it.
 

wooh

Well-Known Member
#59
Creating a female-only thread would be helpful (which is not to say some males here have not experienced the followers' side of things), but you KNOW the moment we say WOMEN ONLY the guys will flock to it :rolleyes:.
I KNOW!!!! Start a thread, first 3 or so pages will be all about menstruation and tampons. THEN we get into the good stuff!
 

Gumby

New Member
#60
That's a very interesting way of putting it Gumby. I don't have the experience in Smooth that you do, but I think what you're describing is part of what was making my transition to Smooth difficult, I didn't 'get' what you just described.
I think the difference comes in that in many cases the lead in open work in smooth is much more like the lead in latin - you are more actively playing off each other - smooth and latin the girl can acually take over the lead to some degree - the "lead" is different when your partner is three feet away from you. Lead can be look, posture, attitude as well as physical connection. Whereas in standard, I have a bad habit of closing my eyes the better to "listen" with my body to my partner. It took me a long time to appreciate that in standard. I used to feel so much more constrained in standard. I once described it as dancing in a Mime-box in a full body cast.

Now if I could just stop thinking for five minutes and actually dance - life might be good.
 

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